Same Day Weigh Ins ?

theEmpiric · 06-09-2008, 09:12 PM

Simple question. Its a well known fact that prety much ALL fighters (except HW) cut weight in order to make the limit.

What are your thoughts? Should we have same day weigh ins? Or is cutting weight part of MMA?

Personally I would like to see same day weigh ins, I know its been done for a long time, but it kinda seems like cheating to me?

Dirty Fighter · 06-09-2008, 09:17 PM

I voted leave it as it is. There are enough other things that need more attention at the moment, plus, the extra day to rehydrate and rest after finishing off a cut ensures that the are coming into the cage at as close to 100% as possible.

NakedChoker · 06-09-2008, 09:20 PM

Definitely leave as is. Everyone will need to cut at least a little, and you need time to rehydrate.

There may be a few things wrong with current MMA state, but I don't see this as one of them.

Drewplata · 06-09-2008, 09:24 PM

I voted to keep it the same, but I think cutting is terrible for MMA going forward. I can see the media reports, "MMA's dirty little secret, giving eating disorders to 5th graders", but fighters will cut anyway. And if you did octagon side weigh ins, title fights would always be in question. So if they're going to do it anyway, at least give them time to rehydrate.

JUST_SCRAP · 06-09-2008, 09:34 PM

Leave it as it is and if they don't make weight , take a cut of there winnings or of there bonus .

Gygax · 06-09-2008, 10:36 PM

Drew and I discussed this a few weeks ago. I'll repost basically what I said to him at the time.

Wow, tough subject with a ton of personal experience to go back to on this. To be honest, I'm not sure where I stand on the subject anymore.

Some background. Before my current position, I was the athletic trainer at a major Division 1 university in charge of wrestling. I've been to and worked all of the major collegiate tournaments, 7 NCAA Championships, 3 US Championships and the 2001 World Championships. I've seen the weight cutting from every aspect possible.

Until 1997, NCAA wrestling weighed in the day before events. Then in a 21 day span, 3 college wrestlers died. Weight cutting was deemed the primary cause of death, but what was hidden was that all 3 also used Creatine which further dehydrates you. Long story which I can elaborate on if you'd like.

Anyway, I was asked to help out with the competitive safeguards committee for the NCAA. We ended up creating a certification process as well as making it day of event weigh ins. I'd love to say that we solved the problem. But to be honest, it didn't help at all. These guys still cut almost the same amount of weight today for day of weigh ins as they did back in the day of day before weigh ins. By rule, you have to give these guys an hour (or two for tournaments) to rehydrate, so its pointless IMO. The only solution is matside weigh-ins, right before they come out to fight/wrestle. But this is a logistical nightmare for a thousand reasons. Can you imagine the buildup to a championship fight, and no one comes out due to a failed weigh-in? Do you account for attire, gloves, and necessary taping during weigh-ins?

Another problem is that all international wrestling still does day before weigh-ins. As does the more widely accepted sport of boxing. When one thinks back to great welterweights of the 80's like Thomas Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, etc, do they look like 147lbers?!? That what they fought at. Weight cutting has been around forever, especially in boxing. And yet there has been no widespread call for that sport to change the weigh in procedures.

The worry about 13-14 yr olds seeing the weight cutting and thinking its okay is completely true. But well before MMA burst on the scene, these kid wrestlers did it. And they'll continue to whether MMA goes day of or not. Its something I fight on a yearly basis as I'm now working in a high school with a very prominent wrestling program.

I love amateur wrestling and yet, I despise the weight cutting as much as everyone. But its a very difficult problem to fight. Simply moving to day of weigh-ins has failed miserably IMO as well as the opinion of most ATC's working NCAA wrestling.

There has been a move about by I believe the NJACB or the NSAC to start weighing in guys a week before the fights and then only allowing them to drop a certain % of weight for the following week. While this is the best solution in a while, guys now make two cuts to make the weigh in and the pre weigh-in. Theres also the question of how you pre weigh-in guys who might be in a different country or across country.

Just some initial thought on a tough subject! I wanted to add to the healthy debate.

Ninjamonkey · 06-09-2008, 10:43 PM

I say keep it as it is. Fighters are going to cut weight regardless of when the weigh ins are, so you might as well give them time to rehydrate so they fight better. Its part of the game and everyone can cut weight if they desire.

Dirty Fighter · 06-10-2008, 12:58 AM

It will never happen, but imagine if they did surprise weigh-ins throughout the year like they do drug tests. Set a max and min division they can fight at according to those weigh-ins. Say 15 lbs. in either direction?

Gooner · 06-10-2008, 01:15 AM

I've said it before as well, same day weigh-ins for me.
And no, weight cutting is not part of MMA. Not all organizations hold the weigh-ins a day earlier.

I know some people will think that would be irresponsible and "how dare you put fighters at risk like that" etc. etc.
I don't follow that logic. It's up to the fighters. You wanna take the risk with dehydrating even though you're fighting a couple hours later, that's your choice.

DJ Big M · 06-10-2008, 05:53 AM

I tend to agree with Gooner. I think same day weigh-in should be the norm because it would give a true picture of a weight class. It would be very difficult to implement however because almost all fighters would have to move up a class. Good news for the Heavyweight division! And we could introduce the superheavyweights. :-)

And if a fighter still cuts weight, it would be his choice (foolishly), just like it's a fighters choice to take steroids (also foolish and illegal).

Crashsti · 06-10-2008, 07:27 AM

At this level i don't see any good option aside from leaving it as it is. These guys are professionals and more importantly, they're adults. Rules for amatuers and children make sense, but not for the guys who do it for a living. Aside from some poor performances and some missed weights for titles i'd say most of the weight cutting has'nt really caused any problems. In fact when you look at guys like Chuck, Tito, Randy, Hughes, GSP, Franklin and many others, you'd never guess that they dropped 10 or more pounds to make weight. Is it optimal? Probably not but at the moment i don't believe there is any hard evidence saying that intelligently cutting weight effects performance.

T-Bone · 06-10-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Big M

I think same day weigh-in should be the norm because it would give a true picture of a weight class.

That's my thinking.

earvinarp · 06-10-2008, 01:11 PM

If you changed this, then you'd have to reorganize the divisions. There's no way people like Okami or Alves would ever make weight. They would have to fight in heavier divisions. Same goes for many people. So, no, this is something the UFC would not even dream of doing.

MuStAnG12687 · 06-10-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooner

I've said it before as well, same day weigh-ins for me.
And no, weight cutting is not part of MMA. Not all organizations hold the weigh-ins a day earlier.

I know some people will think that would be irresponsible and "how dare you put fighters at risk like that" etc. etc.
I don't follow that logic. It's up to the fighters. You wanna take the risk with dehydrating even though you're fighting a couple hours later, that's your choice.

Agreed, it would be nice to bring a sense of genuineness, concerning weight, in the UFC...although I would like to see this implemented, it's not a huge deal for me...

Perhaps it would be interesting if we could see their "true" weight along with their pseudo weight...so they would weigh in the night before and again sometime before (within an hour for arguments sake) their fight so we see what their genuine weight actually is.

fullonshred · 06-10-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by earvinarp

If you changed this, then you'd have to reorganize the divisions. There's no way people like Okami or Alves would ever make weight. They would have to fight in heavier divisions. Same goes for many people. So, no, this is something the UFC would not even dream of doing.

This is exactly what they should have to do - fight in heavier divisions. I dislike the huge size discrepancies I have been seeing lately brought about by guys making huge, perhaps even dangerous cuts who then blow up as much as 15-20 lbs. heavier a day later. Same day weigh-ins will make those guys fight in their natural, heavier weight class, or pay a penalty by having to fight somewhat depleted.

earvinarp · 06-10-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullonshred

This is exactly what they should have to do - fight in heavier divisions. I dislike the huge size discrepancies I have been seeing lately brought about by guys making huge, perhaps even dangerous cuts who then blow up as much as 15-20 lbs. heavier a day later. Same day weigh-ins will make those guys fight in their natural, heavier weight class, or pay a penalty by having to fight somewhat depleted.

I agree. I am just saying that it will not happen.

MTKrav911 · 06-10-2008, 09:42 PM

WOW, Gygax, I know you said you had pro trainer experience in The NFL and such, but didnt know you also were all over the place. That's cool.

I dont know.

I go by the rules. If the rules are you can weigh in 2 days prior to the fight? So be it. You follow whatever the rules are, and as long as you're not breaking them? Fine.

We havent had any issues in professional MMA with weight cutting killing anyone or causing any severe medical conditions. As far as I know.

So keep it like it is until it becomes an issue. IMO, it's only an issue to people who are smaller who move up or are right at the weight they walk around in.

Lemme explain.

Let's say Fighter John Doe is 185 lbs, and walks around at near 185, or worst case 200 lbs.

But. Lets say Fighter john Doe 2 walks around at 210, and easily cuts down to 185?

Who's at the disadvantage? Usually the guy at near his normal weight.

IMO Royce Gracie nullified the weight argument in UFC 1-3. But that's vs Professional McDojo owners.

But at this ultra competitive professional athlete level that we have fighters at today? All of them will bitch and whine to get whatever advantage (ever so slight), over their opponent?

leave the rules there. They havent been broken yet enough to cancel a fight. I think maybe more are concerned because Thiago Alves just jacked up Matt Hughes on a massive level by not making weight, but Hughes took the fight anyway.

I never really looked at what even one lb of weight means in a fight until UFC 49 (Vendetta). Tito Ortiz vs Ken Shamrock (remember that 2002)?

Tito jumps on the scale and weighed in at 205, Ken Shamrock weighs in at 204. Both are accomplished wrestlers. Before the staredown and after the weight results? Tito looked at Ken with this "HAHA IM BIGGER THAN YOU" look and then makes a punching gesture to his own face as if to say Ken is dead. Ken had this look on his face like "I know".

dsver1 · 06-11-2008, 01:39 PM

I always hate things that distract from the sport. I said the same thing about the fights in Denver, CO. The altitude, IMHO, became bigger than some of the fights.

So, with weight cutting, I always hate the qualifiers that go with any fighter description: "Well, he's a MW, but he normally walks around at Super HW weight, etc. etc." And then you always have the excuses: "Oh, well it was a bad cut this time and that really hurt his performance."

I say, if you weigh X, then fight at X. Maybe they could increase the division range a little to give more leeway to the fighters.

I like same day weigh-ins (with a couple hours of buffer) because if a fighter still wants to cut and rehydrate, it's their decision and will definitely affect them more -- it'll be a harder decision for them to make with more consequences.