I've seen Sapp, Fedor, Cro Cop, Natsula, Ricco, Herring, Coleman. I think that's it, but those are the ones that come to mind. I've seen highlights of the rest.
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Dude so what are you saying? either you speak about certain aspects of his ground game, or his ground game overall. When somebody says, his ground game is just as good as everybodies, then he is speaking of overall abilities.
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Is English your first language? I'm asking because I don't think you understood what I said. Here is my quote:
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Nog's BJJ for MMA is the best in the world, his subs are the best, his ground game is not 100% better than everyone's though.
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That doesn't say it's "just as good as everybodies." It says it's not "100% better than everyone's." I also said his BJJ for MMA is the best in the world. What does that mean, well, I could see it taken as maybe there are a few people who are his match, or, as how I meant it, that there are certain aspects of his ground game that are *not* better than everyone else's.
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His groudn game is overall better than everybody else.
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Fedor has a better ground game. He's proven this by going to the ground with Nog every single fight and coming out victorious. If Nog's ground game is better, why has Fedor won both fights that went to the end on the ground?
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donīt agree that Nog is not good at top control, he just has his own style, and uses what is most effective.
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I didn't say he's not good in top control, I said he's not *as* good as some others are. His strength is in guard. I didn't say he had a weak top game or weak control, I just said there are others (Arona, Coleman, Fedor) who have better top games.
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Nog has submitted almost everybody he has faced in Pride. This is no accomplishment for you on the ground?
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Submissions != ground game. Submissions are a part of the ground game, not the entire ground game. Nog is probably the best at submissions in the business, doesn't mean he's the best on the ground in the business. What he's done is quite an accomplishment. What good ground fighters has he faced though, let's look:
Win Jeremy Horn Decision (Unanimous)
Loss Dan Henderson Decision (Split)
Win Mark Coleman Submission (Triangle/Armbar)
Win Dan Henderson Submission (Armbar)
Loss Fedor Emelianenko Decision (Unanimous)
Win Ricco Rodriguez Decision (Unanimous)
NC Fedor Emelianenko No Contest - Accidental Cut
Loss Fedor Emelianenko Decision (Unanimous)
Win Pawel Nastula (Strikes)
Maybe I should throw Herring in there, but I think he's a step under these guys on the ground. However, let's look at this.
First, Jeremy Horn, very good submission fighter. Not immune to subs, and Nog outweighs him and definitely can outmuscle him, but couldn't finish him. Decision win over a lighter fighter.
Loses to Dan Henderson, a wrestler, not a big submission guy, by decision.
Mark Coleman, a wrestler, not a big submission guy. Subs him.
Avenges his loss and takes out Dan Henderson, a wrestler, via armbar.
Loses to Fedor.
Wins over Ricco in a decision, a good wrestler and jiu-jitsu guy, in a match many think Ricco was robbed in.
NC then another loss against Fedor.
A win over a good judo guy in the guy's very first MMA fight.
Do these wins over other ground fighters make him the definitive "best ground guy" in the business? Maybe, it's a tough call, I'd give it to Fedor though since he's bested Nog on the ground.. Nog has only lost by decision though, so his obvious weakness is that if he can't sub the fighter - then he may not have controlled the fight enough to win a decision.
Nog has the best submissions in the game. However, is ground game could be better. Think about it, thrice against Fedor Nog has laid on his back and got pounded on. Remember when Coleman fought Fedor? Coleman put Fedor on his back and controlled him until he got subbed. Imagine if Coleman had Nog's sub defense. Now if Nog is as good as Coleman on top, why not use a more Coleman like approach and just defend against that crazy armbar?
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Well this is not even comparable. Bring me Arona against Big Nog in a ADCC match, then you can compare them. Nog lost to Ricco in the ADCC, I donīt hear you saying Riccoīs ground game is better.
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That's because Ricco is fat right now. =( When Ricco is in prime condition, we'll see where he's at again. I think there was a time where Ricco may have been better than Nog on the ground, but not with his current weight problems and we don't know if he's gotten better or worse in terms of skill, we just know he's worse because of his physical condition. I think if Ricco had continued training hard, as Nog has, and stayed in shape, he'd be better than Nog on the ground. That didn't happen though, so Nog wins over Ricco due to hardwork.
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Once again bring the OVERALL skill level, not "certain situations". Big Nog if I remember correctly only fought in one Tournament in the ADCC. By the way the ADCC, ranks Big Nog at #4 in the world, Arona is not even mentioned in the top 10.
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Heh, yeah, but based on what? They also rank Wanderlei higher than Fedor.
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Nog doesnīt have great takedowns, ok, this can only come from somebody who likes to see wrestling takedowns īala Kerr, Coleman or Arona. The takedown doesnīt always have to be wrestling style. BJJ has many great takedown techniques, Nog has mastered each of them.
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I'm aware, I take BJJ, and I've done wrestling. Nog has good BJJ takedowns, but they don't always work. If he incorporated more takedowns into his style, he'd be more effective.
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Glad you are now admitting that he is the best, kinda contradicting yourself there, but itīs ok. Maybe you have come to realize that itīs OVERALL ability and not just parts.
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I didn't say he wasn't the best on the ground (although, I do think Fedor is the better ground fighter, as they've proven in their clashes). I said he wasn't 100% better on the ground than everyone. Different fighters have different strengths and weaknesses in different places. Lemme compare Nog and Fedor in a few ways on the ground game (including getting there):
-------------Fedor---------Nog----------
Takedowns: Very good ---- Good
Top Control: -Great ------- Very Good
Guard Game: - Good ------ Great
Submissions: Very good ---- Great
Ground strikes: Great ----- Good
Sub-defense: Great-------Great
Yeah, this isn't very accurate, but it's to demonstrate a point. Fedor, for example, I feel has better takedowns, top control and ground strikes, while I feel Nog has a superior guard game and submissions. They both have great sub defense, neither ever being subbed.
Now, does this make Nog or Fedor better on the ground? Well, I think Fedor is a little better, but let's look at another example using the same criteria.
-------------Coleman---------Nog----------
Takedowns: Great ---- Good
Top Control: -Great ------- Very Good
Guard Game: - ? ------ Great
Submissions: Okay ---- Great
Ground strikes: Great ----- Good
Sub-defense: Good-------Great
Is Nog better than Coleman on the ground? Well, he beat Coleman on the ground, so I'll say yes. However, is Coleman better on the ground in certain aspects? Yes he is. So while Nog is better overall, he's still not 100% better in all areas.
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Now you are saying they are equal except the guard and preety even in most aspects. Sak is seriously a living legend, and is known to have pulled out a trick or two out of his hat, so I canīt comment on if he would lose to Nog on the ground or not, however I think he would lose, and "most probably" on the ground.
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I said Sakuraba was a better wrestler, not better on the ground period. He was (his knees are hurting down, so it's debatable) the better wrestler. I think he would lose to Nog on the ground due to being outmuscled. However, no striking he might be able to pull it off.
Sak is crazy because he can block an incoming kick, and shoot in before the guy's foot gets back to the ground and take the person down. He has a fantastic turtle, and pretty good control.
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I see you didnīt go into Rampageīs Wrestling being better than Nogīs, please explain why. Please explain to me why you think Rampageīs wrestling is better than Nogīs. Rampage has never claimed to be a good wrestler, and most of his matches he didnīt win with Wrestling moves. You must know of Rampage something we donīt know, because I donīt know what you are basing it on. Maybe thatīs why you didnīt go into it.
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I said I was talking mostly about takedowns, but slams and sprawl in that instance. Overall, Rampage's wrestling isn't better. Watch him take down Liddell. Watch him slam Arona, Wanderlei. Haven't seen his fight versus Randleman in awhile, but he does a decent job of keepin the fight standing.
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I suggest you watch a few fights before making general comments about somebody not ever being in trouble. He was getting schooled on the ground by Arona, but Silva is one tough cookie.
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What are you talking about? Arona was just sitting in Wanderlei's Guard doing nothing the entire fight. That isn't schooling anything. He was trying to throw strikes, but he was too tied up for the most part. Most of his takedowns were stuffed. When he pulls guard after having his takedowns stuffed, Wanderlei G&P's Arona and stands back up. When on bottom Wanderlei lands the better shots. Second round Arona passes guard only to have Wanderlei stand up while having Arona in his side mount. He might be in trouble towards the end, but the round ends. Have you even seen their second fight? Maybe YOU need to watch some more fights.