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Originally Posted by mepersoner
I didn't say he wasn't the best on the ground (although, I do think Fedor is the better ground fighter, as they've proven in their clashes). I said he wasn't 100% better on the ground than everyone. Different fighters have different strengths and weaknesses in different places. Lemme compare Nog and Fedor in a few ways on the ground game (including getting there):
-------------Fedor---------Nog----------
Takedowns: Very good ---- Good
Top Control: -Great ------- Very Good
Guard Game: - Good ------ Great
Submissions: Very good ---- Great
Ground strikes: Great ----- Good
Sub-defense: Great-------Great
Yeah, this isn't very accurate, but it's to demonstrate a point. Fedor, for example, I feel has better takedowns, top control and ground strikes, while I feel Nog has a superior guard game and submissions. They both have great sub defense, neither ever being subbed.
Now, does this make Nog or Fedor better on the ground? Well, I think Fedor is a little better, but let's look at another example using the same criteria.
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Yes, I see your point here, and I donīt disagree with it. But looking at your little comparison here, it looks like Nog is at least as good as Fedor on the ground. I said before, if he was stronger, he would also be more effective in the categories you favored Fedor in.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
-------------Coleman---------Nog----------
Takedowns: Great ---- Good
Top Control: -Great ------- Very Good
Guard Game: - ? ------ Great
Submissions: Okay ---- Great
Ground strikes: Great ----- Good
Sub-defense: Good-------Great
Is Nog better than Coleman on the ground? Well, he beat Coleman on the ground, so I'll say yes. However, is Coleman better on the ground in certain aspects? Yes he is. So while Nog is better overall, he's still not 100% better in all areas.
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100% not, better yes. Did he shut Coleman down? Definitely.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
I said Sakuraba was a better wrestler, not better on the ground period. He was (his knees are hurting down, so it's debatable) the better wrestler. I think he would lose to Nog on the ground due to being outmuscled. However, no striking he might be able to pull it off.
Sak is crazy because he can block an incoming kick, and shoot in before the guy's foot gets back to the ground and take the person down. He has a fantastic turtle, and pretty good control.
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Sak is how old now? 38? Thatīs alot in MMA. Sak has been around Pride since day one, I think there comes a time when you canīt win all your fights. Back in the day I actually believe he could have had a chance against Nog, but not anymore.
About Rampage,
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
I said I was talking mostly about takedowns, but slams and sprawl in that instance. Overall, Rampage's wrestling isn't better. Watch him take down Liddell. Watch him slam Arona, Wanderlei. Haven't seen his fight versus Randleman in awhile, but he does a decent job of keepin the fight standing.
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Actually you didnīt mention anything about Rampage, you simply said "is Nogīs wrestling better than Rampageīs?" I donīt think Quinton is that good of a Wrestler, the slam was pure power, the fight with Liddell was striking, and against Wanderlai...ouch. Rampageīs Wrestling is like you now say NOT better than Nogīs, thereīs actually no need for comparison here.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
What are you talking about? Arona was just sitting in Wanderlei's Guard doing nothing the entire fight. That isn't schooling anything. He was trying to throw strikes, but he was too tied up for the most part. Most of his takedowns were stuffed. When he pulls guard after having his takedowns stuffed, Wanderlei G&P's Arona and stands back up. When on bottom Wanderlei lands the better shots. Second round Arona passes guard only to have Wanderlei stand up while having Arona in his side mount. He might be in trouble towards the end, but the round ends. Have you even seen their second fight?
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I was speaking of their first fight, the second was different, in your intial post you said where have I ever seen him in trouble on the ground.. So I pointed out their first fight. Since you havenīt seen it, go watch it. Nobody was talking about their second fight, which you so vividly described above.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
Maybe YOU need to watch some more fights.
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I have seen every single Pride event there is, what are you getting at? I said you need to watch the first fight, before you start talking about him not ever being in trouble on the ground.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
Silva won't fight Nog on the ground. He'll fight him standing up. He'll stuff most of Nog's takedowns and stand up if he ends up on the ground, just like against Arona only with less chance of it actually hitting the ground. If Nog gets Wanderlei on the ground, he has a chance at a sub, but I don't think most of the fight will be on the ground.
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Itīs not about Silva not fighting Nog on the ground, you are assuming he wonīt do it, first of all, he would have to be ontop to decide to take it back up, second, even on top, Nogīs wicked grip and full guard will be too much for Silva to dictate the fight. I also donīt really believe most of the fight will be on the ground, but it will go to the ground. You can be sure of this.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
And I think Silva hits just as hard as Fedor standing up.
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Thatīs ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
I would not say Cro Cop is a better striker than Wanderlei. He didn't show it in their K-1/Pride fight. Cro Cop may have better kicks, but Wanderlei has the better clinch and knees. Then we can look at the Hunt fight, which they both lost via split decision. Sure, Cro Cop looks like the better striker on paper with all the K-1 experience, but I'd put them at a pretty even level.
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Actually, to be honest, I think Mirko lost that fight against Silva, due to Silva taking him down, and doing more in the first two rounds. Mirko migh have won the last round, and Silva also fatigued with Mirko showing better stamina, but it should have been a split D for Silva. Anyway that was Mirkoīs 2nd Pride fight, look at him now. Do you still think Silva could pull off what he did in their first encounter?
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
He has better takedown defense *now*. However, Silva's ground game is better.
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Yes, Silvaīs ground game is better than Mirkoīs.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
Woah woah. I NEVER said that. NEVER. Please point out where I said, "Nog's ground game is not that good." I would love to see those words coming from me. They didn't, they wouldn't. I said he's not the best wreslter. His takedowns aren't the best I said. I DID NOT SAY NOG IS NOT GOOD ON THE GROUND. Don't make up false arguments, it's insulting to say I said such stupid things.
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This is what you said..
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
Wanderlei is a bad matchup for Nog really. I mean Nog isn't the greatest wrestler and Wanderlei has awesome sub defense.
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I donīt know if YOUR 1st language is English, but a statement like that basically means he sucks at wrestling. Now you can split hairs and say you meant that he is literally not the greatest, but in everyday English a statement like that means he sucks. Itīs like saying, "well he isnīt the smartest guy around", you would only say that about a person you think is dumb, or not intelligent.
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Originally Posted by mepersoner
I only said parts before. Point out where I said he had a bad ground game.
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Saying he is not that good of a wrestler is basically saying his ground game sucks. At least thatīs what it sounds like.