gilitine

Wassup fight fans. I think for Ultimate Fighter 5, they should have celebrity ultimate fighter. Can you imagine Michael Clark Duncan vs Kevin James in a battle of the heavyweights. Even better, Cindy Crawford vs Paris Hilton. Jaime Presley went to the last UFC. She can fight Willa Ford!!! That would be great!!!

bayouboy

I'm actually not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. If you are being serious then my response is that I would rather watch the lifetime network with my wife then this.

Bomber

MMA is too dangerous for the untrained. Your idea is much better suited to boxing.

OTOH, I'd love to see some of the top WWF wrestlers mix it up in MMA. That would show the wresting fans what a joke their "sport" is, and give UFC a fan boost.

sitnspin

Of course he's joking! Too few people have a sense of humour around here.

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Nimmy

they should let me on TUF 5, i have so many injuries i could hop and triangle choke at the same time, i got a dead leg playing football last night and its still sore today, that would be good, id introduce the leg triangle a move i invented pretty much like a figure 4 but fits like an achilles lock, nice...... sitnspin me vs u would be a good bout. id kick ur ass ha ha ha hmmm back to reality..

two_guns_blazing

wow...no kidding.
But if you have Willa Ford fight, maybe you can do like a tag team match. Are Willa & Chuck still and item? If they are, you can do Willa & Chuck vs Cindy & Randy....

I'M JOKING

subgenius

That is too late! Most people seem to not know this, but TUF is a copy of a WWE/MTV production called Tough Enough. Athletes competed for a WWE contract on that show. It was NOT about the wrestling. It was about proving athletic ability, endurance, and most especially the ability to take a great deal of pain. Pro-wrestling is a pseudo-sport, or sports entertainment (if you like), but it is by NO MEANS an easy career.

Also, most every person I know in the real world that likes pro-wrestling is also a fan of MMA, kickboxing, and other fighting sports. It is entertainment. People are entertained by it. The pro-wrestling fandom is FAR more aware of what pro-wrestling is than anyone that has yet denounced it. And, more to the point, saying it is fake, scripted, etc, etc... has NO impact on the fans of pro-wrestling. They are not suddenly surprised that it is not real. That aspect never had anything to do with why people watch pro-wrestling.

People seem to think that pro-wrestling popped up yesterday. That the fans do not know what they see in the ring. That pro-wrestling fans are a bunch of ignorant, stupid, idiots. That is so wrong. Easily most of the fans of MMA are also fans of pro-wrestling. And, many MMA fighters have had a history in pro-wrestling. I could list the names, but that has been done so much. The most prominent would be Ortiz, Shamrock, but many others exist. Ortiz put a few RNC's on people in TNA and beat them down.

But, pro-wrestling is NOT for the faint of heart. If you think that just anyone can walk into pro-wrestling and suceed, then you have never watched the events. You most likely did not watch Terry Funk closed-fisted punches to Mick Folley's face last night at WWE vs. ECW. Yes, those were real punches. Folley's face welted up immediately. He had a mouse under his left eye and a cut over his eye. Sure it was staged, but tell me that did NOT hurt. Tell me they can now fake immediate welting.

Most people that attack pro-wrestling have never seen it in any real extent. They forget or do not know that once upon a time pro-wrestling was brutally real. They ignore the fact that pro-wrestling is nearly 200 years old. Sure, the WWE or WWF or WWWF was not around 200 years ago, but pro-wrestling was. Abe Lincoln was a pro-wrestler in his youth -- he took challenges to wrestle for money.

Pro-wrestling and MMA have a similar history -- they were both banned for extreme REAL violence. Pro-wrestling took an avenue towards survival. They began scripting and choreographing the matches. They convinced the athletic commissions that it was fake so that they could hold events again. The UFC went another way. They made rules and designed rounds and boxing like judging. They survived in a different way...

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

subgenius

I think that TUF5 should be all heavyweight MMA fighters.

The UFC needs more HW's.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

Nimmy

check out my suggestion on TUF 4 in the TUf forum sub, i think u will agree with what i said on the HW idea, no doubt ul debate with me man.. ha ha

Bomber

Well subg, we agree that it's entertainment, not a sport, and we agree that it is rough. Personally I think it's a ridiculous spectacle, and yes I have seen a live match years ago. I am aware that there were real wrestlers in the past, but most of them think Hulk Hogan and his ilk are just an embarassment.

As far as most MMA fans being fans of WWE/WWF style wresting, I really wonder about that.

subgenius

I should have posted agreeing with you. I think that TUF4 is a good idea, but not now. Now they need HW MMA fighters.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

sitnspin

I'm not even going to respond to the longwinded essay about pro-wrestling, but...

I agree that the UFC needs a deeper HW division, but I still haven't seen all of TUF2 because the heavyweights were so sluggish and lazy and boring. I'm hoping that Dana has no plans to go back to a HW season of TUF anytime soon.

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subgenius

Hey, I am not a fan of the clowns and goofier sides of pro-wrestling. I mean like Doink the Clown, or Eugene, or The Boogeyman, and some others that just play to the kids in the audience. I prefer watching the pro-wrestlers like Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, HHH, The Big Show, and many other, more serious characters in pro-wrestling storylines. Hulk Hogan helped to make pro-wrestling a billion dollar a year industry. I may not like him, but I see that he did have his appeal. Also, I would not want to challenge Hogan to his face.

As for the MMA-to-pro-wrestling fan connection, I am only speaking from my own experience. When I have gone to live events, I have talked with a lot of pro-wrestling fans that simply flat out love MMA. And, oddly enough, a lot of them enjoy the aspects of MMA that most MMA fans find boring -- the actual wrestling.

I have lost count of the sheer numbers of MMA fans that will often boo or denounce a match because "It was nothing but boring ground grappling or wrestling..." Even back in 1993, when me and my friends first started to watch the UFC, there were people there saying that Royce Gracie was boring to watch. WHAT? That was my reaction -- I loved that ground fighting and those submissions.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

subgenius

I defend it because I like it and understand it. But, no one needs to agree with or even like pro-wrestling. I just get dissapointed when people say that pro-wrestling fans seem to not know what it is that they are seeing.

I suggest that people watch the A&E documentary called The Very Real World of Professional Wrestling. That documentary did a full history of pro-wrestling starting with the ancient Greeks, moving through the 1800's, and documenting the first fifty years of the 20th century. In the 40's and 50's pro-wrestling became what we see today, but before that it was little different from what we saw in the 1990's UFC events. BTW, in that documentary, they had Vince McMahon on the show discussing openly what we see in his WWE. He did not try to convince anyone that it was unscripted. He was very candid.

I agree that Dana White needs to get good fighting HW's for any new TUF that features them. Another bad HW showing on TUF will be very bad for the UFC. But, how can they get decent HW's to come to the UFC when PRIDE FC seems to have that weight class locked down?

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

Bomber

I don't doubt that pro-wresting fans love MMA. I just don't think it works the other way. At least the MMA fans I know don't watch wrestling.

As far as wrestling/groundwork in an MMA match, I'm with you all the way. I'll re-watch the Sanchez vs Diaz bout anytime before I'd watch Griffin vs Bonnar again (end of TUF1). I kept hoping one of them would shoot. If I want to watch kick-boxing, I'll find a kick-boxing match on TV. Kick boxing is not nearly as interesting as MMA.

Bullseye! I'm embarrassed to be a fan when I hear booing in a good ground fight. (Of course not all ground fights are good.) Royce and Dan Severn showed the world that striking was not necessarily king of the ring.

Nimmy

i was a mjor fan of WWF back in the day and as u said i went and seen it to. i still watch it now as it is a form of entertainment and at times it is just like my desire for MMA, your not a big man if u only like MMA for the brutality and because its "as real as it gets" if i want fighting i can go to a bar and watch a real fight, i like MMA for skill and i admire the fighters, on the same note i admire wrestlers for their skills, if i see a hurricanerana i like it means the same to me as ( to a different extent) a triangle choke, if u look at guys like genki Sudo he employees at times a WWe style approach to combat he is exagerated and showmanlike, this is why he is one of my fave fighters

two guys going at it unskilled and lacking discipline does nothing for me, skilled athletes doing MMA or pro wrestling is still a thing of beauty and art. I dare you guys who say WWE wrestlers arnt tough or athletes to say it to someone like HHH, these gusy would pack a punch

subgenius

Yep, and pro-wrestlers take it seriously. When asked if wreslting was fake, Dr. Death David Shultz boxed 20/20 interviewer John Stossle's ears so badly that the guy needed medical attention (and inner ear surgery, IIRC). Big Van Vader slammed a guy for saying it was fake. Hulk Hogan demonstrated a chin lock on Richard Belzer because the Belzer thought it was fake -- Belzer passed out and hit his head when Hogan failed to catch him as he fell down unconcious. There are more examples.

Still, I think that a TUF Pro-wrestling vs. MMA show would be interesting, but I think that it is as impossible as it is interesting. Dana White does not want MMA fighters losing to pro-wrestlers in such a mainstream TV program. I just think that the WWE would object mostly because any WWE heavyweight that had a good showing or won TUF would become lost to the WWE. A loss for the WWE in a match-up with MMA fighter on TUF would not be bad for the WWE. All they would have to do is make a good showing.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

Bomber

How does beating an interviewer up prove that wrestling isn't fake? It's fake because the outcome is pre-determined. I admire the athletecism of pro wrestlers. What they do for a living is dangerous and rough as hell. But it's also absurd, because of the costumes, the acting, the mouthy posturing and because everyone pretends it's real while knowing it's fake.

Get a grip! Wrestlers are actors and stunt men, not fighters. The Rock vs Chuck Liddell.... ROTFLMAO!

subgenius

I do not think it was ever about fake or real. I think that those pro-wrestlers took offense to being called fake athletes that never get hurt. And, just because they are technically stunt actors, they often get percieved as nice, gentle people. Dr. Death was banned from pro-fessional wrestling for what he did, not to mention being heavily sued. He could not get a job anywhere in the US -- that was in like 1985, IIRC.

In fact, most any pro-wrestler (outside of Hulk Hogan) that has beat up any reporter for real has been exiled from pro-wrestling. Big Van Vader was kicked out of American pro-wrestling for nearly a decade. There is a tug-of-war between pro-wrestling management and the pro-wrestlers about these issues. Management does not want that publicity. But, some pro-wrestlers are angry, violent, mean tempered people. I mean in real life. Stone Cold Steve Austin is a wife-beater. He is uncontrolable.

The Rock would get KO'd pretty quickly. He was a football player and then a wrestler. He had a father and a grandfather that taught him how to wrestle. He did not have a lot of real combat experience. Why do you think that he quickly marketed his appeal into a movie career? He did not really ever want to be a life-long pro-wrestler.

But, if they put Chris Benoit, Kurt Angle, Sheldon Benjamin, Brett Hart, and some other seriously trained and seriously tough pro-wrestlers against some MMA fighters... I would NOT bet against some of those pro-wrestlers.

You seem to forget, or maybe you do not know, but some matches in pro-wrestling go widely off track. Some fueds and in-ring action HAS become a real fight. Brett Hart was often in trouble because he did not follow the script and he would really beat a guy up. When he lost the title, he was NOT supposed to lose it. Shawn Micheals really pinned him in what was later revealed to be a real fight in the ring. Kevin Nash and Scott Hall did the same thing. I believe Nash was fired from the WWF for just such a reason. Then, he went to the WCW and formed the NWO. The NWO was notorious for not following the fake match's scripted outcomes.

Honestly, I would love to see how any battle royal can be so easily scripted. So much confusion and people being thrown ten feet in the air over the top rope and landing on concrete buffered by ONLY a thin matt. Last night several pro-wrestlers were really injured because The Big Show threw them out of the ring -- he throws you over ten feet in the air. It is so high because the ring itself is nearly five feet off the ground. Women's wrestling is just as dangerous. I watched Chris Startus dislocate her should after being tossed out of the ring over the top rope. That was a real dislocation.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

subgenius

That is known as "suspension of disbelief"; a theory used widely. When you go watch a movie in a theater, do you get mad, stomp out of theater, and demand your money back because you know what you are seeing is fake. I mean, clearly NO fictional movie is EVER real. Did you think Star Wars was really happening somewhere when you saw it? What about magicians? Do you think that magic is for real? Or, do you get really pissed off, stomp out of the show, and demand your cash back because you had an epiphany about magic being fake and tricks and such?

The answer is: NO.

This is how entertainment works. It is a way to escape the ordianry world and enter into a fake world. The average person is able to suspend their ideology regarding belief and disbelief. In other words, they do not care if what they see is real or not when they know it is a fictional story. That is all that pro-wrestling is built upon. That simple, basic theory of suspension of disbelief...

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!