Bruce Lee -- grappler?

subgenius · 10-11-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0264007

Are you referring to Wong Jack Man? Actually, according to Man, that was not the reason they fought. It was because Lee was running his mouth about his fighting style. Also, supposedly Man agreed not to use his kicks. He even accused Lee of using eye gouges almost exclusively in an attempt to poke his eyes out, whereas he didn't want to hurt Lee, and went easy on him.

http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html

In Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey, Lee's wife explained the entire fight and what it was about. She was actually there and witnessed the fight. It was Lee chasing the other fighter around until he caught him, did a takedown, and choked him out on the ground. I do not recall her saying the name of Lee's opponent, but she said the fight was about Lee training Americans. The fight that you speak of seems to be a different affair.

w0264007 · 10-12-2006, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

In Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey, Lee's wife explained the entire fight and what it was about. She was actually there and witnessed the fight. It was Lee chasing the other fighter around until he caught him, did a takedown, and choked him out on the ground. I do not recall her saying the name of Lee's opponent, but she said the fight was about Lee training Americans. The fight that you speak of seems to be a different affair.

It was the same fight. It was in San Franscisco, and she was quoting Bruce Lee's description. Jack Man agreed not to discuss the details of the fight, but when Bruce Lee reported a very similar story to what you posted above in black belt magazine, it made Man out to be a racist and a coward. He challenged Lee to a public rematch, but Lee never accepted.

It was the fight that made him realize his fighting style was not effective. His back was not broken (as depicted in the Dragon movie). Man believes Linda was just trying to sell her books, and invented the racism story line to glorify her husband to the Americans. Man was highly respected in San Fransisco, and allegedly had white students of his own before the affair with Lee, making the racism story line seem improbable.

Crashsti · 10-12-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0264007

It was the same fight. It was in San Franscisco, and she was quoting Bruce Lee's description. Jack Man agreed not to discuss the details of the fight, but when Bruce Lee reported a very similar story to what you posted above in black belt magazine, it made Man out to be a racist and a coward. He challenged Lee to a public rematch, but Lee never accepted.

It was the fight that made him realize his fighting style was not effective. His back was not broken (as depicted in the Dragon movie). Man believes Linda was just trying to sell her books, and invented the racism story line to glorify her husband to the Americans. Man was highly respected in San Fransisco, and allegedly had white students of his own before the affair with Lee, making the racism story line seem improbable.

that Dragon movie was awful. anyone who knows anything about Bruce knows that he did injure his back but it was from lifting weights. he was doing good mornings with something like 200lbs. on the bar. Lee demonstrated to us how not to work our lower back with that bonehead move.

subgenius · 10-12-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0264007

It was the same fight. It was in San Franscisco, and she was quoting Bruce Lee's description. Jack Man agreed not to discuss the details of the fight, but when Bruce Lee reported a very similar story to what you posted above in black belt magazine, it made Man out to be a racist and a coward. He challenged Lee to a public rematch, but Lee never accepted.

It was the fight that made him realize his fighting style was not effective. His back was not broken (as depicted in the Dragon movie). Man believes Linda was just trying to sell her books, and invented the racism story line to glorify her husband to the Americans. Man was highly respected in San Fransisco, and allegedly had white students of his own before the affair with Lee, making the racism story line seem improbable.

I disagree. That article itself, written in 1980, is not even sure of itself. It is filled with conjecture. It does not even seem like the same fight that Linda Lee talked about in the documentary about her husband.

Man is certainly going to pump up his own image (even back in the 1960s and 1970s) to get people to buy into his training school. So, that makes that entire article suspect. Can you dig up that Chinese newspaper in San Fansisco where that supposed public challenge appeared? Can you even establish that Lee refused?

Yes, that terrible Dragon movie was fiction. It was loosely based on some loose facts and it was formulated to be a selling movie.

I believe that Man is the one not being honest. It would have crippled his school if he had come out and said, "Yeah, Bruce Lee kicked my ass." Alledgedly Man had white students? WTH does that mean. There was no alledgedly about Bruce Lee's students. Why is there an alledgedly attached to Man's students? Again, that discredits Man's story and reinforced Linda Lee's story.

w0264007 · 10-12-2006, 02:25 PM

Here are additional links. I don't know which paper the Man challenge came from. And all my sources are just webpages on the subject, but the fight was not as onesided as it was persented by Lee and his wife, and it was not for the reasons she offered.

http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html

http://www.fenkwoon.com/wjm.html

And finally: Wikapedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Jack_Man

w0264007 · 10-12-2006, 02:26 PM

Again. This fight was using traditional martial arts, and was the basis for Lee's JKD revolution. Win or lose, Lee's popularity grew and Wong Jack Man's did not.

Dirty Fighter · 10-12-2006, 03:23 PM

Both guys give different version of the fight, big surprise. With their reputations at the time neither would admit defeat. All that though is off the main topic of the thread though. Could Bruce hang with MMA. Yes. He would be a LW, and was a better striker than any LW out their. He was also extremely fast and powerful for his size and trained like a madman. And by the way, wasn't the guy Gacie fought in the finals of UFC 1 a practitioner of JKD. I know it says otherwise on sherdog, but they showed it on the Royce Gracie UFN on Spike and I could have sworn they said he used JKD.

w0264007 · 10-12-2006, 04:23 PM

UFC 1 Gracie fought Gerard Gordeau, a dorky looking (although very tough) Dutch French kickboxer...if that makes any sense...His style was Savate.

In UFC 2, Lee fought a shaolin kung fu master, Jason Delucia, who was built sort of like Jason Scott Lee, but he wasn't a JKD practitioner.

Pat Smith was a TKD user, but he was also a hapkido/thai boxing/boxing practitioner...I don't think he was shown on the Gracie highlights...Kimo was, but he did Jiu Jitsu.

Dirty Fighter · 10-12-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0264007

UFC 1 Gracie fought Gerard Gordeau, a dorky looking (although very tough) Dutch French kickboxer...if that makes any sense...His style was Savate.

In UFC 2, Lee fought a shaolin kung fu master, Jason Delucia, who was built sort of like Jason Scott Lee, but he wasn't a JKD practitioner.

Pat Smith was a TKD user, but he was also a hapkido/thai boxing/boxing practitioner...I don't think he was shown on the Gracie highlights...Kimo was, but he did Jiu Jitsu.

I don't remember seeing Bruce there at all??!!

DrumzCT · 10-12-2006, 05:39 PM

Man I can't believe I missed this discussion, Sub did a great job though. I second everything he said.

and just to add my two cents, another reason Bruce was so great, he could read his opponents amazingly well. He could tell just by the way one shifted thier weight what technique they were going to throw.

My school is a Roy Harris International school and Roy is actually Dan Inosantos BJJ coach so I've heard some cool first hand Bruce stories from my coach. (For those who don't know Dan Inosanto was one of Bruces close friends and is pretty much THE current authority on JKD)

w0264007 · 10-12-2006, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0264007

UFC 1 Gracie fought Gerard Gordeau, a dorky looking (although very tough) Dutch French kickboxer...if that makes any sense...His style was Savate.

In UFC 2, Lee fought a shaolin kung fu master, Jason Delucia, who was built sort of like Jason Scott Lee, but he wasn't a JKD practitioner.

Pat Smith was a TKD user, but he was also a hapkido/thai boxing/boxing practitioner...I don't think he was shown on the Gracie highlights...Kimo was, but he did Jiu Jitsu.

Lee=He I don't know how I managed that typo. My only guess was habit from writing Lee so much in the thread.

subgenius · 10-12-2006, 11:38 PM

Hey, the ghost of Bruce Lee could still kick ass, LOL.

Wilko · 10-19-2006, 01:29 AM

My sensei trained with Dan Inosanto for a few years in Eskrima and other things. I'll ask him what Dan told him about Lee but from what i know Lee prefered to grapple.

Here's a few facts about Lee. I'm not saying that these mean he could take on any current MMA fightings (weather or not he could have in his prime) but how many MMA fighters do you know that can do some of these?

---Bruce Lee's striking speed from 60cm (24 inches) away was five hundredths of a second.
---Bruce did one-hand push ups using only 2 fingers.
---Bruce was able to break a 70 kg (154 lbs) bag with a sidekick.
---Bruce's famous "One Inch Punch" was able to knock back and off balance a 200lb man into a chair, using only 1 inch of striking distance. The target stands with their feet squared and is unable to turn to a sideways stance because of the chair being in the way, thus being knocked off balance.
---Bruce was able to hold a 57 kg (125 lb) barbell at arms length in front of him (with elbows locked) for several seconds.

And who was the person who said they could keep Bruce Lee in check? *SLAP!*

Wilko · 10-19-2006, 01:31 AM

A quote from Jesse Glover:

Quote:

We timed him with an electric timer once, and Bruce's quickest movements were around five hundredths of a second (.05sec), his slowest were around eight hundredths (.08sec). This was punching from a relaxed position with his hands down at his sides from a distance between 18-24 inches. Not only was he amazingly quick, but he could read you too. He could pick up on small subtle things that you were getting ready to do and then he'd just shut you down."

Would mixed martial arts even exist today if it wasn't for this guy? He wasn't just a movie star like some people think (what are you's on)? He trained harder than anyone in his time or today.

PINOYPRIDE · 10-19-2006, 06:49 AM

very interesting thread. I am a Bruce Lee fan but I don't know if he can grapple like the Gracies, but I read he has knowledge in grappling.