Pro Wrestling jumping on the MMA bandwagon - Fight Forum - MMA - UFC - Boxing - K1

Nimmy · 10-08-2006, 12:54 PM

i have been a fan of WWF(or as its now called WWE) wrestling for most of my life, through childhood and now as an adult, i watch this for several reasons, as a child i was your rougish kid who used to practice my moves on my cousins, until he actually set up a fight club to bring people in to fight me.
back in the day i thought that the undertaker, hulk hogan, macho man and ultimate warrior were the toughest guys on the planet and the clothesline the most deadly "move" ever invented, until i found out of course that it is fake.

now my passion is MMA and martial arts in general as it is of course the real deal, i do however still keep up to date with WWE, and watch it more for an entertainment value.

now having a knowledge of MMA and Pro Wrestling i notice subtle changes.

changes such as the undertaker being refered to as the greatest "striker" in the WWE, or his new passion for applying the triangle choke. Bobby lashley being touted as an MMA star turned WWE superstar, or even before the boom shamrock trying his hand at the action, i have also noticed the change in applied moves such as the traditional sleeper hold being replaced with a rear naked choke, with full hooks applied to the legs, something lost in the pro wrestling before the MMA boom.

now here is the issue, with Dana White openly slating the WWE formula and wanting no "open" association to pro wrestling at all, the WWE seem to have the reverse attitude, with comentators reffering to commonly associated MMA material or phrases.

in my opinion wrestling took a negative yet understandable step out of its traditions with its raunchy outlook of sex and violence as opposed to a "good" wreslting match, this good wreslting has been replaced with "hardcore" blood thirsty boubts wth steel chairs and tables, feuling th average fans thirst for blood and gore, not to mention endless abundeance of women in panty matches. Now im a red bloodied male and love the ass shot as much as the average joe, but i found i now see less good qualtiy wrestling and more diva search antics. so i move my "real as it gets" side to the MMA scene.

but heres the problem, the MMA scene of should i say UFC have delivered us the endless WWE sagas, octogon ring girl competitions, staged rivalries, off the wall commentators and aptly named events. hel they even have Ortiz vs Shamrock which everyone knows have backgrounds in pro wreslting and the silver screen.

hell whats next an octogon hell in a cell match in the WWE, or will we get posters of our favourite MMA "superstars" appearing in the audience, fuelled up with the phoney rivalries and pre match interview sagas?

so with so much different, isnt it a little strange that these to have so much in common?

and above all do we like to see it?

subgenius · 10-08-2006, 03:50 PM

The WWE has signed Sylvester Terkay, known as Predator in K-1 MMA (he is 3-1 in MMA matches). The WWE can buy out all of the UFC talent, if the WWE wanted. The WWE is in no danger from MMA, but pro-wrestling is a smart industry. The educated MMA fans that also like pro-wrestling are being catered to more and more, as you said, Nimmy.

People seem to say no, when I mention the financial power of the WWE. They say that MMA is pushing the WWE out of the market. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This year, the WWE had a 400% increase in available cash -- up to $57 million! That is $57 million above all their expenses and salaries and pay-outs. The WWE has hit high ratings in the 18.54 range to over 20.0 on various TV nights.

And, bear in mind that the WWE does not collect any ad revenues from NBC/USA Network. The ads you see for WWE products are on the WWE's time and not network time.

If the UFC had $57 million this year in available cash, then they would be able to buy out the top level of fighters in PRIDE, K-1 MMA, and other promotions. I expect to see more MMA fighters cashing in on pro-wrestling. Tito Ortiz was paid a lot of money by TNA Impact pro-wrestling, and Tito never even had an official match with TNA. He did promos and came down to the ring a few times to help some friends -- putting the RNC on many people.

Nimmy · 10-08-2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

The WWE has signed Sylvester Terkay, known as Predator in K-1 MMA (he is 3-1 in MMA matches). The WWE can buy out all of the UFC talent, if the WWE wanted. The WWE is in no danger from MMA, but pro-wrestling is a smart industry. The educated MMA fans that also like pro-wrestling are being catered to more and more, as you said, Nimmy.

People seem to say no, when I mention the financial power of the WWE. They say that MMA is pushing the WWE out of the market. Nothing could be farther from the truth. This year, the WWE had a 400% increase in available cash -- up to $57 million! That is $57 million above all their expenses and salaries and pay-outs. The WWE has hit high ratings in the 18.54 range to over 20.0 on various TV nights.

And, bear in mind that the WWE does not collect any ad revenues from NBC/USA Network. The ads you see for WWE products are on the WWE's time and not network time.

If the UFC had $57 million this year in available cash, then they would be able to buy out the top level of fighters in PRIDE, K-1 MMA, and other promotions. I expect to see more MMA fighters cashing in on pro-wrestling. Tito Ortiz was paid a lot of money by TNA Impact pro-wrestling, and Tito never even had an official match with TNA. He did promos and came down to the ring a few times to help some friends -- putting the RNC on many people.

yep i dont see the WWE or UFC clashing in the market as the viewrship in many cases are similar yet different, the average MMA fan would watch both MMA and wreslting for different reasons. Vince McMahon is a smart business man i think he is realising that the MMA scene has increased tenfold in the last 5 years and so the WWE can attach its values to a new growing audience and so increase the WWE fanbase even more, to be honest i wont be surprised to see vince buy into the MMA industry

Crashsti · 10-09-2006, 01:21 PM

i don't see Vince buying into the MMA scene, at least not starting up his own promotion. the UFC has name brand recognition and will always have that advantage. it does'nt matter that other promotions often put on better shows. Vince would have to come up with a hugely superior product to outdraw the UFC. i personally see Vince sticking with just what you described, adding elements of MMA to the WWE without actually hosting any real MMA matches. a good way to draw in the less educated MMA fan without having to deal with athletic commission.

Nimmy · 10-09-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashsti

i don't see Vince buying into the MMA scene, at least not starting up his own promotion. the UFC has name brand recognition and will always have that advantage. it does'nt matter that other promotions often put on better shows. Vince would have to come up with a hugely superior product to outdraw the UFC. i personally see Vince sticking with just what you described, adding elements of MMA to the WWE without actually hosting any real MMA matches. a good way to draw in the less educated MMA fan without having to deal with athletic commission.

wouldnt surprise me if he was a silent partner, i watched no mercy last night and the MMA references were unbeliveable.

really takes credabity away from MMA when the undertaker puts a guy in a triangle for 2 minutes and the guy gets up

Crashsti · 10-09-2006, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimmy

wouldnt surprise me if he was a silent partner, i watched no mercy last night and the MMA references were unbeliveable.

really takes credabity away from MMA when the undertaker puts a guy in a triangle for 2 minutes and the guy gets up

i don't think it takes the credibility away from MMA, unless of course your absolutely blind to what MMA really is. there have always been people who refuse to see the differance between the two uh....sports. i am sure somewhere in the world somebody is creating an "UNDERTAKER vs. Tim Sylvia" thread.

Nimmy · 10-09-2006, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashsti

i don't think it takes the credibility away from MMA, unless of course your absolutely blind to what MMA really is. there have always been people who refuse to see the differance between the two uh....sports. i am sure somewhere in the world somebody is creating an "UNDERTAKER vs. Tim Sylvia" thread.

yep i understand the difference because im an MMA fan, howver the non fan, when watching MMA might see it as a "wrestling" move which may discredit the sport as phoney, its amazing how many peop[le say to me that MMA is fake or they arnt really fighting, because of the diluted nature of "wrestling" in our society

subgenius · 10-09-2006, 02:19 PM

I think that it is far more likely that Vince McMahon would buy into the UFC rather than start a new promotion. I am not sure if the UFC is a publicly traded company where anyone could buy stock. If it is, the $57 million would buy out the entire UFC and have plenty of money left over. The WWE is a publicly traded stock. Any of us could but into it. That is yet another distinction, if the UFC is not publicly traded, that shows how far ahead of the UFC the WWE really is in the financial end of promotional marketing value. My understanding is that McMahon has his hands in dozens of companies that are not related to the WWE.

subgenius · 10-09-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimmy

yep i understand the difference because im an MMA fan, howver the non fan, when watching MMA might see it as a "wrestling" move which may discredit the sport as phoney, its amazing how many peop[le say to me that MMA is fake or they arnt really fighting, because of the diluted nature of "wrestling" in our society

Well, any fight with rules is not a fight. It is a sport. There is no more real professional fighting in the sense of real fighting like we saw in the early days of MMA and the UFC. Once the long list of fouls and rules were introduced, it ceased to be real fighting. It is, in fact, artificial fighting hampered by rules and such. That is why the UFC and MMA are sports, because they have strict rule systems. The same applies to any rule-based combat sports.

Pro-wrestling, while staged and choreographed, really does not follow any rules. I mean, sure there are rules, but they are rarely followed and more often then not completely ignored. ECW extreme rules matches have zero rules -- anything goes. But, it is not a real fight.

If the WWE and pro-wrestling can discredit MMA, then MMA is a far weaker sport than we all have thought. I do not see this as the case, especially since pro-wrestling is no longer hiding the fact that events are staged. There are more and more books and documentaries about this out there now. Vince himself has even appeared on The Very Real World of Pro-fessional Wrestling, which was a documentary that revealed a lot of insider information about pro-wrestling. Heck, the WWE was revealing the winners of WCW matches the day before the matches took place.

That pro-wrestling is staged is hardly a secret. Everyone that watches it knows what they are seeing. Except maybe five year old kids that are too young to understand.

Dirty Fighter · 10-09-2006, 02:39 PM

Don't forget that MMA in Japan is rooted in professional wrestling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Inoki

Inoki was a pioneer of both professional wrestling and MMA.

Nimmy · 10-09-2006, 04:17 PM

do you think therefore then that the WWE are more inclined to be associated to MMA and the UFC than MMA and the UFC to the WWE?

sitnspin · 10-09-2006, 04:45 PM

I've told this story before, but I once read an interview with Dana where he said the WWE approached him about "borrowing" some top UFC talent for an ongoing work on Smackdown where there'd be a feud between pro wrestlers and MMA fighters with frequent brawls and sneak attacks.

As Dana said, it would have been a really lucrative move for Zuffa, because Vince was offering them a lot of money. But he knew right away that it was still a bad move because he doesn't EVER want to encourage an association in the fans' minds between the sport he loves and the fakeness of professional wrestling.

I can't stomach pro wrestling as it is these days, so I'm largely oblivious to what's going on over there. But if they're now using terms like striking and RNC, I would say it's a plan to make that association happen anyway, whether Dana likes it or not. If Vince McMahon thinks his audience wants more elements of MMA, he'll find a way to give it to them. You'll never see him push for full contact, though, because he needs his talent able to go out there and give it their all 200+ nights a year.

Dirty Fighter · 10-09-2006, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimmy

do you think therefore then that the WWE are more inclined to be associated to MMA and the UFC than MMA and the UFC to the WWE?

Depends on the fan. Anybody who has paid attention to MMA definitely knows the difference and does not associate one with the other. Lifelong WWE fans, like my 13 year old son, watches MMA with me and always tries to make the comparisons to WWE.
And of course Brock Lesnar getting into MMA doesn't help to keep the two separate. Funny thing is that there are alot more injuries in WWE than in MMA, serious ones at least. I don't recall ever hearing about anybody dying in a MMA fight. Maybe that is why the general public protested MMA at first, because it seemed like professional wrestling but real.

subgenius · 10-09-2006, 05:55 PM

SitNSpin made a great point. The reason that pro-wrestling is the way that it is has more to do with the 200+ nights a year that the average pro-wrestler puts into his career and into the ring. There is a lot of incredible athleticism involved with pro-wrestling. But, Dirty Fighter definately added to that point when he talked about injuries. People have died in pro-wrestling rings around the word. The most well-televised was Owen Hart's fall from the rafters.

Rick Rude fell from the top of the ring post down to the floor on his head. He compacted (or is it called telescoped) vertabrates in his neck. Hardcore Bob Holly suffered a ten-inch gash in his back and had about fifty stitches because of that deep, nasty cut. Rick Rude did not continue his match. BUT, Bob Holly fought for ten or so more minutes after his cut. He bled profusely. These are but a few examples of the rough and tumble life of a real life pro-wrestler. There are a lot more.

As far as associations go, I am still not so sure about the shared talent idea that was mentioned above. It is an interesting story, but I want to see that interview just to judge for myself.

Jras0001 · 10-09-2006, 07:43 PM

If the WWE and McMahon wanted to put together their own MMA organization, they could do quite easily. They have the money to do so and they have the know how and the experience in marketing those types of events. I also believe that should they do so, it would have the same life span as McMahon's XFL football league. I dont think that the WWE or Pro Wrestling is going to go anywhwere soon and they should stick to what they know and do best and leave the MMA to those that are already heaviliy involved in it.

asronn · 10-09-2006, 09:26 PM

I think there is a big difference between the XFL vs the NFL and a WWE MMA org. The NFL has been around for about 50 years and their brand is the Dominate brand because of money and deals they make. You already have several MMA orgs out there and plenty of MMA fighters to go around. I think the UFC has the best North American fighters but thats it. All Vince would have to do is get all the former UFC greats like vitor, coleman, randleman, bring Bas, Rampage some brazillain talent and some of this young blood, and really pay some money for fighters and they could easily compete because MMA fans could care less about the org its watching we just want good fights. And the name recognition would bring in the guys who only watch UFC. Im just not sure how interested Vince is in doing it. Personally I could care less as long as Im getting good fights...

Bomber · 10-09-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

People have died in pro-wrestling rings around the word. The most well-televised was Owen Hart's fall from the rafters.

Rick Rude fell from the top of the ring post down to the floor on his head. He compacted (or is it called telescoped) vertabrates in his neck. Hardcore Bob Holly suffered a ten-inch gash in his back and had about fifty stitches because of that deep, nasty cut. Rick Rude did not continue his match. BUT, Bob Holly fought for ten or so more minutes after his cut. He bled profusely.

So what? There is a long liturgy of disasters, deaths and injuries in movie stunt work. That's all wrestling is. It has absolutely nothing to do with fighting.

subgenius · 10-10-2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomber

So what? There is a long liturgy of disasters, deaths and injuries in movie stunt work. That's all wrestling is. It has absolutely nothing to do with fighting.

It has something to do with fighting. You need to take a stress tab, sit down calmly, and think things over.

And, yes... actors in films have died. Vic Marrow died filming The Twilight Zone when the helicopter crashed during a scene. And, there is that guy that got run over by the chariot in Ben Hur. Yeah, it happens. Too bad the stunt guys don't perform 200+ nights a year.

subgenius · 10-10-2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jras0001

If the WWE and McMahon wanted to put together their own MMA organization, they could do quite easily. They have the money to do so and they have the know how and the experience in marketing those types of events. I also believe that should they do so, it would have the same life span as McMahon's XFL football league. I dont think that the WWE or Pro Wrestling is going to go anywhwere soon and they should stick to what they know and do best and leave the MMA to those that are already heaviliy involved in it.

True that. Which is why I think that McMahon would only invest in an MMA promotion rather than create one. With the cash that the WWE has, they could buy KOTC out-right. They could buy TKO. The UFC would be tougher. But, if McMahon bought KOTC, then he could easily lure UFC fighters away from the UFC with big money and big extravaganza PPV events. Will it happen? I don't think so. Not any time soon. The McMahon empire is very focused on the three highly successful promotions that it currently owns in pro-wrestling.