Pride is the king, but the UFC is the prince

LuvMyCRX® · 08-18-2005, 04:10 PM

Ive got to agree with most of what Seikan said. Pride and the WWE are hard to compare, they are for different moods. Ill be the first to extoll the virtues of the WWE, their PPVs are just as (or more so) balls out as any Pride or UFC, for different reasons. Sub-G is right that few MMA stars could cut it in the WWE.
I think the future will see alot of crossover artists when the UFC becomes as large as Pride. If the money is the same, Americans like Rampage and Herring, along with your CroCops and Fedors, will want to show thier stuff to American fans. How beautiful is belt unification?! Imagine how huge crossover PPVs can be!!!

subgenius · 08-18-2005, 04:26 PM

I am comparing marketing strategy, not actual items within the events. Whether you like it or not, PRIDE is an event that takes place on PPV and within arenas... just like the WWE. Marketing is what it is all about, if you are talking successes of each of these organizations. It is not about whether the WWE is exhibition or soap opera or whatever. It is about the marketing. The UFC is on track to excell way past PRIDE by way of their marketing strategy (believe me, they DO look at the WWE's success at marketing their brand).

subgenius · 08-18-2005, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuvMyCRX

Ive got to agree with most of what Seikan said. Pride and the WWE are hard to compare, they are for different moods. Ill be the first to extoll the virtues of the WWE, their PPVs are just as (or more so) balls out as any Pride or UFC, for different reasons. Sub-G is right that few MMA stars could cut it in the WWE.
I think the future will see alot of crossover artists when the UFC becomes as large as Pride. If the money is the same, Americans like Rampage and Herring, along with your CroCops and Fedors, will want to show thier stuff to American fans. How beautiful is belt unification?! Imagine how huge crossover PPVs can be!!!

That would be incredible. I think that it would greatly increase the market value of both PRIDE and the UFC.

SeikanJudanski · 08-18-2005, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuvMyCRX

Ive got to agree with most of what Seikan said. Pride and the WWE are hard to compare, they are for different moods. Ill be the first to extoll the virtues of the WWE, their PPVs are just as (or more so) balls out as any Pride or UFC, for different reasons. Sub-G is right that few MMA stars could cut it in the WWE.
I think the future will see alot of crossover artists when the UFC becomes as large as Pride. If the money is the same, Americans like Rampage and Herring, along with your CroCops and Fedors, will want to show thier stuff to American fans. How beautiful is belt unification?! Imagine how huge crossover PPVs can be!!!

WWE, well I liked it more when it was the WWF. Is a great show, with great actors. I am a big fan of the older days of the WWF, but I also loved to watch the NWA way back in the day. Heck, that was the only place I got to see the Road Warriors, Rick Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Lex Lugar or the 4 Horsemen or all the other great stars. Infact the NWA, was like a Secret Favorite to me, the Road Warriors were awesome.. my favorite tag team of all time. Second to the British Bulldogs.

But WWF was always better, not only did they have MORE stars, but they had the gigantic Arenas filled, the crazy great story lines.. and an even better Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant or King Kong Bundy, Jake the Snake, Rowdy Piper or Paul Orndoff, British Bulldogs, or "oooh yeeeaaahhh"-Randy Savage, who can forget the memorable Wrestlemanias, with the Mister T´s or all the stars joining the WWF to put on a show.

The laters times of the WWF revamped, with the likes of Stone Cold, The Undertaker, Bret Hart, Triple H, or Mankind. And how can forget The Rock! So many stars I have forgotten, from past to present. Anyway, Vince McMahon, must be a marketing genius, although I am not a fan of the new WWE.

BUUUUTTTTT. WWE or WWF or WCW or ECW or NWA or whatever you want to call it, is not Pride or UFC, it`s not even real. Sure the Pro-Wrestlers are athletes, stunt men and actors together, this is the reason why I watched and still watch some entertaining Wrestling matches every now and then.

Yes, they are athletes, in the fullest sense. But do you think they would have a chance in a MMA match? About MMA fighters fighting in the WWE, that depends on how good they can act, since it´s not real. Ken Shamrock was in the WWF, and I was like.. man, get back to the UFC, McMahon is killing you with his Steroids and you can´t act. That´s another thing about the WWE or Pro-Wrestling, nobody cares about these guys health issues. McMahon himself is known to pass out steroids, Hulk Hogan as admitted to this many times. There is virtually no testing.. and what for? it´s not real. It is not real competition.

That´s is the whole thing. It´s not REAL. Therefore there is no comparison to be made between a real competition and a unreal competition.

SeikanJudanski · 08-18-2005, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

That would be incredible. I think that it would greatly increase the market value of both PRIDE and the UFC.

I have always been for a unification of the title.. you can´t imagine how excited I was, when Wanderlei stepped into the Octagon, and Randy was talking about unifiying those belts. But I guess we will have to wait for that one. Or possibly never see it.

subgenius · 08-18-2005, 04:45 PM

I am not even discussing the reality factor versus the showmanship factor. It is all about the marketing factor. On that scale they are totally comparable.

If you think not, then look at the what the UFC has done so far. The WWE created Tough Enough, and the UFC followed suit with The Ultimate Fighter. The WWE has paved the way for weekly and bi-weekly TV events that lead into the PPV events. The UFC has followed suit with their Ultimate Fight Night premier, which will (hopefully) take off and become the normal mode of operations for the UFC. PRIDE has not done either of these purely market value events.

The WWE hits a market that is North America, South America, and Europe as well as Japan and SE Asia. The UFC wants that level of expansion, while PRIDE has not impacted those markets as well as they could had they followed the market path set forth by promotions like the WWE.

SeikanJudanski · 08-18-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

I am not even discussing the reality factor versus the showmanship factor. It is all about the marketing factor. On that scale they are totally comparable.

If you think not, then look at the what the UFC has done so far. The WWE created Tough Enough, and the UFC followed suit with The Ultimate Fighter. The WWE has paved the way for weekly and bi-weekly TV events that lead into the PPV events. The UFC has followed suit with their Ultimate Fight Night premier, which will (hopefully) take off and become the normal mode of operations for the UFC. PRIDE has not done either of these purely market value events.

The WWE hits a market that is North America, South America, and Europe as well as Japan and SE Asia. The UFC wants that level of expansion, while PRIDE has not impacted those markets as well as they could had they followed the market path set forth by promotions like the WWE.

Listen Sub.. Pride is way bigger than the UFC. It´s a fact. Once the UFC realizes all these plans you are talking about, and blows up like you say they will, we can have this talk again. But let´s face it, we want to see top rated fights with top fighters.. and Pride delivers just that. I see Pride as the Olympics of MMA, with the fighters coming from all over the world, whereas UFC is more American cut, allot of American fighters. Pride is a huge organisation, and I know whatever you are saying, is "if" the UFC got as big as Pride, because for sure, they are not even in the same Ballpark right now.

But I wish the UFC all the best.. hell, I want to see good fights, not numbers.

LuvMyCRX® · 08-18-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeikanJudanski

McMahon himself is known to pass out steroids, Hulk Hogan as admitted to this many times. .

Im sure Scott Steiner is completely clean!

SeikanJudanski · 08-18-2005, 05:13 PM

Allot of wrestlers have died from combinations of Steroids, Painkillers and other drugs. It´s a shame.

subgenius · 08-18-2005, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeikanJudanski

Listen Sub.. Pride is way bigger than the UFC. It´s a fact. Once the UFC realizes all these plans you are talking about, and blows up like you say they will, we can have this talk again. But let´s face it, we want to see top rated fights with top fighters.. and Pride delivers just that. I see Pride as the Olympics of MMA, with the fighters coming from all over the world, whereas UFC is more American cut, allot of American fighters. Pride is a huge organisation, and I know whatever you are saying, is "if" the UFC got as big as Pride, because for sure, they are not even in the same Ballpark right now.

But I wish the UFC all the best.. hell, I want to see good fights, not numbers.

The UFC does have international talent... Andrei Arlovski, the current Heavy Weight champion, is from Belarus. Matyushenko is also from Belarus. Pedro Rizzo is from Brazil. Assuerio Romualdo da Silva and Renato Sobral are also from Brazil, as is Vitor Belfort. Bill Mahood, Joe Doerksen, and Patrick Cote are from Canada. The Machine Freeman is from Great Britain. So, there is an international cut to the UFC... more examples than I care to cite at the moment. I just disagree... the UFC is definately in the same ballpark. Soon, and sooner than many people expect, it will be the main brand in MMA, IMO.

However, I do agree with you on one main point: I want the UFC to grow with QUALITY over QUANTITY.

SeikanJudanski · 08-18-2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

The UFC does have international talent... Andrei Arlovski, the current Heavy Weight champion, is from Belarus. Matyushenko is also from Belarus. Pedro Rizzo is from Brazil. Assuerio Romualdo da Silva and Renato Sobral are also from Brazil, as is Vitor Belfort. Bill Mahood, Joe Doerksen, and Patrick Cote are from Canada. The Machine Freeman is from Great Britain. So, there is an international cut to the UFC... more examples than I care to cite at the moment. I just disagree... the UFC is definately in the same ballpark. Soon, and sooner than many people expect, it will be the main brand in MMA, IMO.

However, I do agree with you on one main point: I want the UFC to grow with QUALITY over QUANTITY.

Pedro and Vitor aren´t even in the UFC anymore.. and Canada is International for you?, mhh... maybe I should have said, UFC is very North American.

Anyway.. to keep this from going into a never ending debate, let´s agree to disagree.

subgenius · 08-19-2005, 02:16 AM

Well, those fighters are still listed at the UFC site... and, I cannot argue with you about Canada. I mean, clearly it is NOT a part of the US. And saying North American ignores the talent from Europe and South America that were noted... Whatever, it is all semantics.

SeikanJudanski · 08-19-2005, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Well, those fighters are still listed at the UFC site... and, I cannot argue with you about Canada. I mean, clearly it is NOT a part of the US. And saying North American ignores the talent from Europe and South America that were noted... Whatever, it is all semantics.

Have you ever seen Pride PPV´s? Just a side question, because maybe you haven´t seen any Pride. There are many who haven´t seen Pride.

SmashingMachine · 08-19-2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Well, those fighters are still listed at the UFC site... and, I cannot argue with you about Canada. I mean, clearly it is NOT a part of the US. And saying North American ignores the talent from Europe and South America that were noted... Whatever, it is all semantics.

Yeah, Rizzo fought in the last PRIDE event...and Belfort is supposed to fight in this one I believe. I think some of them float back and forth between the two, but you can only be in one organization at a time...if I'm not mistaken.

LuvMyCRX® · 08-19-2005, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeikanJudanski

Have you ever seen Pride PPV´s? Just a side question, because maybe you haven´t seen any Pride. There are many who haven´t seen Pride.

Sub-G, as much as I agree with you on the value of the WWE, I think this might be the case. When I saw my first Pride event I, as a complete UFC homer, wanted it to be on par with the UFC. It blew me away. Admittedly,my first taste was Total Elim '04 (a gem by any standard), but even Pride events that arent as action packed are beyond what the UFC has now. I think the entertainment value of the fighters are close, but the extra scrill Pride spends on the event itself, just to make it more visually appealing, is where the UFC falls back. I want the UFC to be #1, real bad, but it willtake time for the UFC to catch up.

subgenius · 08-19-2005, 02:30 PM

I agree. I just feel that the UFC is definately on the right track. I think that we ALL agree that we want the QUALITY to be first, and the QUANTITY to be a distant second. Quality of fighters and events over the quantity (pomp and circumstance) of events. Looking at the ratings and acclaim that TUF has recieved, then I think that the UFC is on a good track at the moment.

I would much prefer to see good fighters in good fights over all that flash of pyrotechnics and laser light shows. At the same time, it is important to be educated in what is being seen in a particular fight. I like watching the rookies as much as the veterans, and some fights people call boring are (to me) actually very interesting. Maybe it all comes down to the individual personal subjective taste of each viewer...

LuvMyCRX® · 08-19-2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

I agree. I just feel that the UFC is definately on the right track. I think that we ALL agree that we want the QUALITY to be first, and the QUANTITY to be a distant second. Quality of fighters and events over the quantity (pomp and circumstance) of events. Looking at the ratings and acclaim that TUF has recieved, then I think that the UFC is on a good track at the moment.

I would much prefer to see good fighters in good fights over all that flash of pyrotechnics and laser light shows. At the same time, it is important to be educated in what is being seen in a particular fight. I like watching the rookies as much as the veterans, and some fights people call boring are (to me) actually very interesting. Maybe it all comes down to the individual personal subjective taste of each viewer...

Mos Def. If the UFC had a Vince-like promo guy, thery could have great young fighters, cagy vets, established stars, AND a uniquely American over the top visual spectacle.
You dont need to be a fan of the WWE to be interested in Angle reverse moonsaulting Rikishi off the top of the cage, or Mick Foley with a barbed wire tipped 2x4 giving and taking the big shots. (I know thats a wee bit old, but Ive been out of the game a while) I think you almost need to be a fight fan to enjoy a UFC PPV.

SeikanJudanski · 08-19-2005, 09:05 PM

Mick Foley was un-human.. I don´t know how he did it, but he went to the edge with his body. You can´t tell me it dosen´t hurt, when the Untertaker piledrives you through a Cage 15 feet high. Absolutely phenominal.

subgenius · 08-19-2005, 09:13 PM

I watched Mick Fowley go through many transitions throughout his career. He believed in pro-wrestling enough to go farther than most anyone else ever seemed willing to go with what they do in the ring. I agree... he was un-human, LOL. I have yet to see the stuff that he did in Japan in its entire, but from what I have seen, it is just unbelievable. Oh, and I love that little Bang-Bang thing he always did.

MICHAELSON79 · 08-25-2005, 02:43 PM

I enjoy watching UFC over PRIDE I just wish they would have a show every month instead of every other.I like the cage over the ring and Joe Rogen is a great announcer compared to prides.They have more fans over there but for here UFC is the way to go.