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Is EliteXC Ruining MMA?
Rarely do I post but I felt the need to voice my opinion on this subject.
First, I have to say I was pretty disappointed to hear the news that EliteXC got their network television deal. I know some people looked at this as a good thing for the sport, however more exposure isnt always good exposure. As soon as I heard the news I just knew they were going to put Kimbo on their live debut. But you have to take into consideration the image Kimbo is going to portray to the entire nation. Kimbo is a street fighter turned pro, yet still looks and acts like a thug street fighter (when hes in the ring). I respect Kimbo since hes seriously trying to learn all the facets of mma, however he still fights like a street fighter.. fighting with pure emotion and adrenaline. If his last fight had aired live on tv network im betting there would have been a negative reaction from some media outlets. Watching the fight against Tank was a joke, it looked more like a circus. They had to stop the fight like twice just because of the crowd (which was more like a huge mob of Kimbo fans). Also, we all know Tank shouldnt even be fighting any more. I remember hearing he was pad like $125,000 for that fight, of course he was going to take it. He probably didnt even train as usual, there is no way in hell the UFC or any other organization would pay that much for a 40+ year old, out of shape, outdated fighter. Another thing I worry about, EliteXC keeps putting him up against these cans which is just setting them up for a brutal knockout. A lot of people probably find this entertaining, I dont. Now im not against knockouts but I am against watching a fight and just waiting for the poor guy to get canned. If you watched Guida vs. Huerta, Silva-Henderson or any of Bj Penns fights, then you know what a true exciting MMA fight is. Fights that have constant position changes, stand up, submission attempts... fights that could end up anywhere. These fights didnt happen because of any rules or penalties for not enough striking or action. Those fights created themselves, and they put on a show because thats true MMA.
Back to Kimbos fight with Tank, if they showed that fight, or that type of fight (which all Kimbo fights have been) on network television I believe will be hearing a lot of harsh criticism and debate. People are not going to want their kids watching that, and most non-mma fans will think its just down right brutal, and not a sport but a street brawl. This portrays the image that the UFC worked hard to pull away from.
This is purely hypothetical, but lets say the Kimbo-Tank fight was shown on live network tv. What do you think would have been the overall reaction from the public, and do you think there would have been any criticism from the media?
Then I hear Jeremy Lappen (the EliteXC fight cordinator) say that grapling is frowned upon, and that they have penalties for taking guys down over and over, and not striking constantly. I understand what they are trying to do, but its ruining the game. I just hope other organizations dont feel they have to start doing the same thing. This is eliminating one of the most important aspects of the game. There are certain MMA fans that dont even agree with them standing fights up at all, listen to Joe Rogan, he thinks they should leave them on the mat and if your getting controlled then to bad. I understand most new MMA fans dont like the lay and pray, and just want to watch a standup battle.. But thats not what MMA is, if you want to watch standup go watch boxing.
I still believe EliteXC has done some good things for the sport, creating competition and even some good fights. They seem to be treating their fighters well and recruiting new talent. However, they may be causing more harm for the sport than good.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drol
Rarely do I post but I felt the need to voice my opinion on this subject.
First, I have to say I was pretty disappointed to hear the news that EliteXC got their network television deal. I know some people looked at this as a good thing for the sport, however more exposure isnt always good exposure. As soon as I heard the news I just knew they were going to put Kimbo on their live debut. But you have to take into consideration the image Kimbo is going to portray to the entire nation. Kimbo is a street fighter turned pro, yet still looks and acts like a thug street fighter (when hes in the ring). I respect Kimbo since hes seriously trying to learn all the facets of mma, however he still fights like a street fighter.. fighting with pure emotion and adrenaline. If his last fight had aired live on tv network im betting there would have been a negative reaction from some media outlets. Watching the fight against Tank was a joke, it looked more like a circus. They had to stop the fight like twice just because of the crowd (which was more like a huge mob of Kimbo fans). Also, we all know Tank shouldnt even be fighting any more. I remember hearing he was pad like $125,000 for that fight, of course he was going to take it. He probably didnt even train as usual, there is no way in hell the UFC or any other organization would pay that much for a 40+ year old, out of shape, outdated fighter. Another thing I worry about, EliteXC keeps putting him up against these cans which is just setting them up for a brutal knockout. A lot of people probably find this entertaining, I dont. Now im not against knockouts but I am against watching a fight and just waiting for the poor guy to get canned. If you watched Guida vs. Huerta, Silva-Henderson or any of Bj Penns fights, then you know what a true exciting MMA fight is. Fights that have constant position changes, stand up, submission attempts... fights that could end up anywhere. These fights didnt happen because of any rules or penalties for not enough striking or action. Those fights created themselves, and they put on a show because thats true MMA.
Back to Kimbos fight with Tank, if they showed that fight, or that type of fight (which all Kimbo fights have been) on network television I believe will be hearing a lot of harsh criticism and debate. People are not going to want their kids watching that, and most non-mma fans will think its just down right brutal, and not a sport but a street brawl. This portrays the image that the UFC worked hard to pull away from.
This is purely hypothetical, but lets say the Kimbo-Tank fight was shown on live network tv. What do you think would have been the overall reaction from the public, and do you think there would have been any criticism from the media?
Then I hear Jeremy Lappen (the EliteXC fight cordinator) say that grapling is frowned upon, and that they have penalties for taking guys down over and over, and not striking constantly. I understand what they are trying to do, but its ruining the game. I just hope other organizations dont feel they have to start doing the same thing. This is eliminating one of the most important aspects of the game. There are certain MMA fans that dont even agree with them standing fights up at all, listen to Joe Rogan, he thinks they should leave them on the mat and if your getting controlled then to bad. I understand most new MMA fans dont like the lay and pray, and just want to watch a standup battle.. But thats not what MMA is, if you want to watch standup go watch boxing.
I still believe EliteXC has done some good things for the sport, creating competition and even some good fights. They seem to be treating their fighters well and recruiting new talent. However, they may be causing more harm for the sport than good.
What do you guys think?
1st of all there will be media outlets that are going to complain about it no matter what as well as non-MMA fans. I mean look at the PC-America we live in now "MMA is so offensive" after the EliteXC event in May you can probably count on that. I hate to say it but we are turning into a nation full of sissies.
On another point, I love a good ground battle just as much as a good striking battle if not more. I do not however like to see a guy hold a guy down and do nothing b/c he knows he is helpless on his feet and win a boring decision simply b/c he was on top. I say if the guy on bottom does more damage than he should win the fight but that is just me. So I have no problem w/ standing the fight up if the guy on top is doing nothing more than just holding the guy down. Joe rogan can call it good strategy, technique, or whatever else he wants to but is plain and simply boring. I love watching Nate Diaz when he is on the ground b/c he is constantly working for submissions from every possible position; that is MMA to me, not LnP.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FightFan76
1st of all there will be media outlets that are going to complain about it no matter what as well as non-MMA fans. I mean look at the PC-America we live in now "MMA is so offensive" after the EliteXC event in May you can probably count on that. I hate to say it but we are turning into a nation full of sissies.
On another point, I love a good ground battle just as much as a good striking battle if not more. I do not however like to see a guy hold a guy down and do nothing b/c he knows he is helpless on his feet and win a boring decision simply b/c he was on top. I say if the guy on bottom does more damage than he should win the fight but that is just me. So I have no problem w/ standing the fight up if the guy on top is doing nothing more than just holding the guy down. Joe rogan can call it good strategy, technique, or whatever else he wants to but is plain and simply boring. I love watching Nate Diaz when he is on the ground b/c he is constantly working for submissions from every possible position; that is MMA to me, not LnP.....
Agreed. But the way Jeremy Lappen made it sound was that they dont even consider grapplers fighters, and thats not a part of fighting. I just hope Kimbo doesnt murder somebody on national tv, lol. Thats all im saying, I think he is somewhat legit, but they need to give him a credible opponent.. so we can have a better idea of his skills. Right now, hes nothing more than the internet street brawler he used to be. Hes 3-0, but he fought nobodys! I mean seriously, give the guy at least a little bit of a challenge. I would like to see him fight Buentello or someone near his talent.
Also, I agree with Rogan, however im not going to complain if they stand it up because the guy on top is just holding him there and not working.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drol
Rarely do I post but I felt the need to voice my opinion on this subject.
First, I have to say I was pretty disappointed to hear the news that EliteXC got their network television deal. I know some people looked at this as a good thing for the sport, however more exposure isnt always good exposure. As soon as I heard the news I just knew they were going to put Kimbo on their live debut. But you have to take into consideration the image Kimbo is going to portray to the entire nation. Kimbo is a street fighter turned pro, yet still looks and acts like a thug street fighter (when hes in the ring). I respect Kimbo since hes seriously trying to learn all the facets of mma, however he still fights like a street fighter.. fighting with pure emotion and adrenaline. If his last fight had aired live on tv network im betting there would have been a negative reaction from some media outlets. Watching the fight against Tank was a joke, it looked more like a circus. They had to stop the fight like twice just because of the crowd (which was more like a huge mob of Kimbo fans). Also, we all know Tank shouldnt even be fighting any more. I remember hearing he was pad like $125,000 for that fight, of course he was going to take it. He probably didnt even train as usual, there is no way in hell the UFC or any other organization would pay that much for a 40+ year old, out of shape, outdated fighter. Another thing I worry about, EliteXC keeps putting him up against these cans which is just setting them up for a brutal knockout. A lot of people probably find this entertaining, I dont. Now im not against knockouts but I am against watching a fight and just waiting for the poor guy to get canned. If you watched Guida vs. Huerta, Silva-Henderson or any of Bj Penns fights, then you know what a true exciting MMA fight is. Fights that have constant position changes, stand up, submission attempts... fights that could end up anywhere. These fights didnt happen because of any rules or penalties for not enough striking or action. Those fights created themselves, and they put on a show because thats true MMA.
Back to Kimbos fight with Tank, if they showed that fight, or that type of fight (which all Kimbo fights have been) on network television I believe will be hearing a lot of harsh criticism and debate. People are not going to want their kids watching that, and most non-mma fans will think its just down right brutal, and not a sport but a street brawl. This portrays the image that the UFC worked hard to pull away from.
This is purely hypothetical, but lets say the Kimbo-Tank fight was shown on live network tv. What do you think would have been the overall reaction from the public, and do you think there would have been any criticism from the media?
Then I hear Jeremy Lappen (the EliteXC fight cordinator) say that grapling is frowned upon, and that they have penalties for taking guys down over and over, and not striking constantly. I understand what they are trying to do, but its ruining the game. I just hope other organizations dont feel they have to start doing the same thing. This is eliminating one of the most important aspects of the game. There are certain MMA fans that dont even agree with them standing fights up at all, listen to Joe Rogan, he thinks they should leave them on the mat and if your getting controlled then to bad. I understand most new MMA fans dont like the lay and pray, and just want to watch a standup battle.. But thats not what MMA is, if you want to watch standup go watch boxing.
I still believe EliteXC has done some good things for the sport, creating competition and even some good fights. They seem to be treating their fighters well and recruiting new talent. However, they may be causing more harm for the sport than good.
What do you guys think?
I agree 100%. The latest rumors I have heard from other threads is that they will feed Kimbo JT. eXc just seems to take the wrastlin angle with Kimbo. That's all fine and good except if you are going to represent a controversial sport on national TV for the first time. This fight or type of fight if it happens will give mma a bad name undoing the hard work done up to this point to get mma considered a real sport.
Scarier yet is that you consider that this is going down in an election year. In case you are not familiar with american politics, shutting down MMA would be the sort of cause that politicians love to use to distract voters from real issues that matter like the war, economy, and health care. If that isn't scary enough just remember that "human Cockfighting" MMA hater John Mcain is running for President for the Republicans just desperately looking for something to unite the Republican base behind him. Janet Jacksons boob worked well in the past. Kimbo and a crazed crowd knocking the snot out of another quick KO on National TV in a bloody spectical could do the trick too.
Lets also not forget that boxing would love nothing more than to get rid of mma and that boxing has deep pockets with boxing fans who don't understand mma in control of the government. Can you see the dominos lined up yet?
Atleast if Kimbo got to fight a comlete and relevant fighter we would have not a blood bath, but an actual competition that would be hard to play off as cockfighting. If instead we get 30 seconds of haymakers leading to blood and a KO with a crazed crowd throwing stuff in the ring and a ref that appears to have no control over the fight then "human cockfighting" indeed it will be. Then the sky is the limit.
Just remember that the general public won't do research. And these days neither will the media. Look at the Obama's reverend wright clips. It has been shown that the clips that the media has been playing were taken out of context and in fact quotes from ambasadors and Reagan staff members, but will the media state that. No. They already played the outrageous clips and know that those clips sell so they will continue to play them.
Do you think that if some grotesque display occurs thanks to eXc that the media will bother to point out that that is not real world class mma but instead just a rogue company making overmatched wrasslin matches in order to produce highlight reel 40 second fights. Definately not. All mma in the medias eyes will be tank vs. kimbo or whoever kimbo fights. It will once again be universally accepted that mma fighters are bar brawlers from MC gangs and street gangs.
Finally as for Kimbo I think he has a future as long as he continues to train. I have seen some of his interviews and training and he doesn't at all remind me of a thug, but you know what the media will portray him as. I know this will only be like his third fight and the argument is made that he should get easy fights. I dissagree because he is now a main eventer which means he needs top competition. I feel the UFC handled their freakshow right with Brock. If you are going to make a non-proven fighter on the main card you need to give them legit competition like how brock got mir. And know I wouldn't consider JT a legiit challenge, just a tailor made KO.
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Let's be honest. If Kimbo gets a couple more wins, his ass is likely to end up in the UFC. And, what is the difference between Tank and Coleman now, in 2008? They both are waaaaaay past their "primes" and they both were signed to fight new "superstars" who are supposed to bring them a world of pain. Kimbo did what he did with Tank and the same will happen when Lesnar and Coleman fight.
So, while I agree that these kind of match-ups may hurt the sport, you have to concede that this is not an EliteXC problem exclusively.
If anything, EliteXC is a good place for up and comers to get exposure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earvinarp
Let's be honest. If Kimbo gets a couple more wins, his ass is likely to end up in the UFC. And, what is the difference between Tank and Coleman now, in 2008? They both are waaaaaay past their "primes" and they both were signed to fight new "superstars" who are supposed to bring them a world of pain. Kimbo did what he did with Tank and the same will happen when Lesnar and Coleman fight.
So, while I agree that these kind of match-ups may hurt the sport, you have to concede that this is not an EliteXC problem exclusively.
If anything, EliteXC is a good place for up and comers to get exposure.
I don't think these match-ups hurt the sport. In the case of the UFC and Lesnar, the UFC does'nt need Brock. He's just a nice addition who happens to have quite a college wrestling pedigree as well as star power from his WWE days. Kimbo on the other hand is EliteXC, without him they're a much less compelling promotion. He is thier star and they need him more than the UFC will ever need Lesnar. So no, EliteXC is'nt ruining the sport, they're just trying to run a top level promotion using less than top talent.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earvinarp
Let's be honest. If Kimbo gets a couple more wins, his ass is likely to end up in the UFC. And, what is the difference between Tank and Coleman now, in 2008? They both are waaaaaay past their "primes" and they both were signed to fight new "superstars" who are supposed to bring them a world of pain. Kimbo did what he did with Tank and the same will happen when Lesnar and Coleman fight.
So, while I agree that these kind of match-ups may hurt the sport, you have to concede that this is not an EliteXC problem exclusively.
If anything, EliteXC is a good place for up and comers to get exposure.
They definately are not in their primes, but to say that Tank=Coleman I think is ridiculous. Do you really think that Tank could beat Coleman even once out of ten tries?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drol
Rarely do I post but I felt the need to voice my opinion on this subject.
First, I have to say I was pretty disappointed to hear the news that EliteXC got their network television deal. I know some people looked at this as a good thing for the sport, however more exposure isnt always good exposure. As soon as I heard the news I just knew they were going to put Kimbo on their live debut. But you have to take into consideration the image Kimbo is going to portray to the entire nation. Kimbo is a street fighter turned pro, yet still looks and acts like a thug street fighter (when hes in the ring). I respect Kimbo since hes seriously trying to learn all the facets of mma, however he still fights like a street fighter.. fighting with pure emotion and adrenaline. If his last fight had aired live on tv network im betting there would have been a negative reaction from some media outlets. Watching the fight against Tank was a joke, it looked more like a circus. They had to stop the fight like twice just because of the crowd (which was more like a huge mob of Kimbo fans). Also, we all know Tank shouldnt even be fighting any more. I remember hearing he was pad like $125,000 for that fight, of course he was going to take it. He probably didnt even train as usual, there is no way in hell the UFC or any other organization would pay that much for a 40+ year old, out of shape, outdated fighter. Another thing I worry about, EliteXC keeps putting him up against these cans which is just setting them up for a brutal knockout. A lot of people probably find this entertaining, I dont. Now im not against knockouts but I am against watching a fight and just waiting for the poor guy to get canned. If you watched Guida vs. Huerta, Silva-Henderson or any of Bj Penns fights, then you know what a true exciting MMA fight is. Fights that have constant position changes, stand up, submission attempts... fights that could end up anywhere. These fights didnt happen because of any rules or penalties for not enough striking or action. Those fights created themselves, and they put on a show because thats true MMA.
Back to Kimbos fight with Tank, if they showed that fight, or that type of fight (which all Kimbo fights have been) on network television I believe will be hearing a lot of harsh criticism and debate. People are not going to want their kids watching that, and most non-mma fans will think its just down right brutal, and not a sport but a street brawl. This portrays the image that the UFC worked hard to pull away from.
This is purely hypothetical, but lets say the Kimbo-Tank fight was shown on live network tv. What do you think would have been the overall reaction from the public, and do you think there would have been any criticism from the media?
Then I hear Jeremy Lappen (the EliteXC fight cordinator) say that grapling is frowned upon, and that they have penalties for taking guys down over and over, and not striking constantly. I understand what they are trying to do, but its ruining the game. I just hope other organizations dont feel they have to start doing the same thing. This is eliminating one of the most important aspects of the game. There are certain MMA fans that dont even agree with them standing fights up at all, listen to Joe Rogan, he thinks they should leave them on the mat and if your getting controlled then to bad. I understand most new MMA fans dont like the lay and pray, and just want to watch a standup battle.. But thats not what MMA is, if you want to watch standup go watch boxing.
I still believe EliteXC has done some good things for the sport, creating competition and even some good fights. They seem to be treating their fighters well and recruiting new talent. However, they may be causing more harm for the sport than good.
What do you guys think?
Ok I have been a fan since day one in this country ,the very first ufc's and everything else.I don't see it as a bad thing that elite got a network,it was inevitable that someone would go for it eventually.The fact that it's not the UFC may irk some people ,but i don't care the door is open and it's a free market place.The bottomline is that the newtworks need viewers and right now mma is popular and is getting numbers.When a network see's the type of crowd size and reaction in the last Kimbo fight then the networks are obviuosly going to be interested.
Now the issue of Kimbo himself being the poster boy for the new era on tv ,then i'm not mad about that either.The guy is a massive attraction regardless of his relative inexperience and that's all that matters to networks.On his opponents.He should be fed can's for the next year imo.But now i would feed him cans who can take him down and and wear him out a bit ,give him some work.In fact i would make him fight that cop from mass. in Boston!!!!!!!!ha ha ha ha ha !No forget it keep it in miami tat crowd was the loudest iv'e ever heard and iv'e been to Pride events in Japan when Sak was winning.
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I've seen a few of the EliteXC/Strikeforce events, and the talent isn't a lot worse than that in the bottom or even middle of the UFC, their production values just seem very crude and amateur. I think if anything is going to hurt the image of MMA for the mainstream audience, it will be the marketing department of these organizations.
Say what you want about Dana and the Fertitas, but one thing they have successfully done is change the perception of MMA fighters from out of shape, bloodthirsty brawlers to elite level athletes who are intelligent and hardworking. If an org. like Strikeforce and CBS take the easy way out to get ratings and market this like a sideshow, or more realistically and almost as bad, a "shocking" extreme sport, that could do a lot of damage to MMA's credibility.
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I don't think EliteXC is ruining MMA, yet. With this news that they will be airing this fights on network TV they have the potential to do damage.
The person at the center of the storm is Kimbo Slice, not so much the man himself because he seems pretty calm and well spoke but the way Gary Shaw is marketing him is completely inappropriate for a sport that is trying to gain credibility. Every single time they introduce him they are harping on his "internet street fighting legend" moniker and that is giving the wrong impression to first time viewers because it reinforces the idea that MMA is just a bunch of animals in a cage (instead of on the street) trying to tear eachother apart.
Also they are not helping MMA by engineering Slice's record. He is obviously being fed cans to build his record and the next rumoured fight with James Thompson will do nothing to change my mind of a engineered career. I am not saying that other fighters have no gotten the easy road once in a while but no more than the cakewalk Gary Shaw is giving Kimbo. We haven't had a chance to see his ground game, which i am pretty convinced doesn't exist, and while his stand up is exciting it most likely wouldn't be much use against a truly skilled striker.
Are these the people we want to represent us on network television? So far they are not convincing me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTrac
I don't think EliteXC is ruining MMA, yet. With this news that they will be airing this fights on network TV they have the potential to do damage.
The person at the center of the storm is Kimbo Slice, not so much the man himself because he seems pretty calm and well spoke but the way Gary Shaw is marketing him is completely inappropriate for a sport that is trying to gain credibility. Every single time they introduce him they are harping on his "internet street fighting legend" moniker and that is giving the wrong impression to first time viewers because it reinforces the idea that MMA is just a bunch of animals in a cage (instead of on the street) trying to tear eachother apart.
Also they are not helping MMA by engineering Slice's record. He is obviously being fed cans to build his record and the next rumoured fight with James Thompson will do nothing to change my mind of a engineered career. I am not saying that other fighters have no gotten the easy road once in a while but no more than the cakewalk Gary Shaw is giving Kimbo. We haven't had a chance to see his ground game, which i am pretty convinced doesn't exist, and while his stand up is exciting it most likely wouldn't be much use against a truly skilled striker.
Are these the people we want to represent us on network television? So far they are not convincing me.
That was my main point. It just reminds me of the stereotype given to the early UFC's. Has everyone already forggotten how hard it has been to get to the point mma is at now? I feel it would be very easy to go back to the old perception.
Remember the people who still have the old perception of mma don't watch the UFC or any other major org. They will however watch eXc because they can get it on good old rabbit ear TV. I am talking about the grandma/grandpa types that are conservative and vote. It is an election year and Mcain(human cockfighting) is running for president. He needs something to get the far right behind him. This could be his ticket.
I have seen Kimbo interviewed and he seems like a nice guy dedicated to learning this sport. Even in his street fights on youtube he struck me as a nice respectful guy(which is impressive when you are demolishing guys in a backyard or boatyard or _____yard). Let Shaw get ahold of him and an image needs to be created because clearly no one likes a nice respectful guy. So they try to create a terrifying persona. The last thing we need is Kimbo being marketed as a big, menacing, street fighting, blackman ala King Kong which is exactly the impression I have been getting from eXc. That will make sure that all the old ladies will look at mma as the end off the western world. Heck I would be willing to bet that the majority of these people don't even know mma exists.
Remember people. MMA has been outlawed once. What makes you so confident it can't happen again? Especially in an election year.
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WOW, good stuff. Didnt know about the grabbing the glove rule. But if CBS presents it that way? Hopefully it'll help the public understand a little bit more before they start airing real MMA fights.
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Originally Posted by Flying Triangle Choke
Aside from some of the stuff he wears to the cage, when have you ever seen him act like a thug at any of his fights?
I know that he is a responsible new-age business man, but Kimbo, to anyone who doesnt watch MMA, seems like a jailhouse thug (even though he has never been in jail).
I am just afraid of what the public will think of him
but other than that, I think Elite XC and DREAM are terrific organizations that are actually HELPING MMA by treating their fighters well
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Is EliteXC Ruining MMA?
