rugger

I have lurked and posted a bit here, my background is bodybuilding, rugby and long ago some semi-formal western boxing and as an early twenties a streetfighter/fight clubber. I have never had a ground game and never needed one frankly (luckily), but have been interested in grappling for years. I am a very dedicated father of 2 young boys and have just recently found time to dedicate atleast once a week to grappling/MMA at a school.

So finally, I have started formal training at a grappling school (Grapplers Domain, Cedar Park/Austin, TX). My strength carries me a long way at defending against submissions and positioning, but I am amazed at how effective the technique is of some of my more experienced classmates. Equally amazed out how much muscular endurance is required to be effective at MMA and grappling. I am used to lifting heavy for 30-45 minutes - traditional weight training with 1-2 minutes of rest between very short heavy sets. I gas very, very quickly when rolling. I have attending only 3 classes, but love this stuff. 2 grappling classes and a vale tudo class yesterday.

I have a lot of respect for the condition and technique it takes to be effective at grappling and MMA.

Questions - Keep in that I am only able to commit once a week at the grappling gym, actually, I'll probably go every Mon and every other Saturday. I want to maximize my non-grappling workouts to increase my muscular endurance while working on my aerobic fitness as well.

1. Weight training - I intend to keep up my weight lifting. I am guessing that a lot of super-setting should replace my traditional training. Less rest, more work. Also, I plan to change some lifts to incorporate more explosive lifting, like power cleans and push-presses (military style). Any other suggestions?

2. Track workouts - sprints, sled, chute...what kind of track workouts do you guys do? Does anyone know where to get that weighted vest that Mark Kerr wore in the HBO Docu 'The Smashing Machine'?

3. Cardio - What heart rate zone is best for MMA training? When doing you cardio do you guys train with a HRM to truly know where you are training? I have always been a more instinctive training, but I want to get the best bang for my buck these days.

Thanks in advance and much respect.
Eric

lethalweapon

Very interesting post, I think the thing that helps me the most when I grapple is Cardio. I jog in the woods behind my house which is a relativly hilly area. Sprinting the hills is a very good way to build the explosivness required for takedowns. I prefer to build up and work on my shoulders triceps and my core. These are areas that will help you when you roll around. I do Power press, bench press, reverse bench, and millitary press. Also if you gass fast it may also be do to your grappling technique and style. If you are in some ones guard you tend to expend alot of energy fighting off submissions and trying to pass. Also if your opponent has sidemount control on you, relax. people tend to squirm and fight in little wasted movements instead of waiting for a good time to execute an effective escape. Top mount requires little energy to maintain because even if your opponent is strong and constantly trys to disrupt your balance all you have to do is trasition to his back or side. Position is very important, remember to be relaxed while rolling and use your movements wisely. Always be offensive I found it helps me. I'm sorry if this advice does not help.
Best of luck,
Jeff

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Fav Fighters: Nate Quarry,Brandon Vera,James Irvin,Karo Parisyan,Hermes Franca,Spencer Fisher,Thiago Alves,Sean Sherk,GSP,AA,Rashad Evans,Renato Sobral,and Rich Franklin.

Quarry is healed! He will be back to rock the MW division in '07.

rugger

Thanks for the reply, Jeff, I put some of it to the test tonight and it helped.

One thing I concentrated on this evening at training was relaxing, especially when in a neck/headlock situation. I was able to get out of a guillotine by staying relaxed and not fighting it so much. I tired a bit less than before, but I have a long way to go. We rolled in 5 minute rounds with 1 minute rest and 1 minute was not enough, and I was gassed within 4 minutes. It really did seem to help when I concentrated on relaxing and breathing.

It's funny, I have always heard bjj/grapplers/wrestlers say that strength is nothing, technique is everything...sorry, but I have to disagree, my strength is saving my ass a lot. When rolling with smaller guys with a years of grappling/wrestling experience I am able to muscle out of potential submissions and muscle them into subs. However, when I go against the guys in my weight class or above with experience I get my ass handed to me most of the time or at best I simply survive. There is a middleweight that dominates me, even when I think I have a straight armbar or triangle sunk he schools me. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are lightweights that would hand my ass to me on a platter, I am just saying, all other things being equal strength wins.

I am going to start gearing my weight training to be more of strength conditioning and muscular endurance training. Probably going to start doing plyo work also and replace the bench with an exerball (dumbell presses for example on the ball instead of bench) - I think this will build core and balance.

I am already being encourage to enter a tournament, that seems a bit ridiculous at this point, I literally have about 5 hours of training in grappling. I think after a few months I might be ready to enter a tourney with a beginner class - but how do I know I will be matched up with someone as equally inexperienced? Competition is fine, but I don't want to get injured or get my ass completely humiliated.

lethalweapon

You are right about the strenght helping in grappling. I am quite strong for my size. I am 5'7 and I weigh 185. I have a bench press of 250( max) and I lift quite often. However I am one of the weakest ones in my gym. My coach is a 5'9 250lb beast. He often beats me with relative ease, but I do have an advantage over him. I am way quicker than he is. In the clinch I am able to shoot my underhooks in and shift my weight quickly. I do find however that once I get him down in side control it is impossible to hold him down. The only times I get subs on him is when he turns away from me to defend my Kimura, I put my left shoulder on his close arm and push it forward. Then I either take his back or go for a sholder triangle(which hardly ever works because he is so strong.) If you wish to out muscle your opponent then you have to get top positions. You cannot muscle some one that is in your guard. You should take a wrestling prespective when you grapple, if you prefer strength. Practice takedowns and sweeps from your guard and the bottom. Good luck if you decide to do the tourney. If you do it will be great experence.

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Fav Fighters: Nate Quarry,Brandon Vera,James Irvin,Karo Parisyan,Hermes Franca,Spencer Fisher,Thiago Alves,Sean Sherk,GSP,AA,Rashad Evans,Renato Sobral,and Rich Franklin.

Quarry is healed! He will be back to rock the MW division in '07.

Crashsti

rugger, if you're entering a competition like NAGA you will be placed with others of your skill and size. i believe that the novice class is for people with less than 6 months experience.

MTKrav911

My grappling sucks. Usually consists of a good sprawl and a couple of OH $*@!'s by me, but when we switch to MMA?

Oh $*@@...

Payback, I have quick hands and enormous leg power. What is helping me A LOT though with my grappling as far as endurance and using those "twitchy" muscles is Kettlebells. It's an effective workout and I've seen a difference in my ground game. So far, I've gone from laughing stock on the ground, to just a joke and hope to be at the level of, "He's Coming Around" by christmas.

But like i said, payback is a bitch and I make sure my "grappling" buddies get it once we're both on the feet!

rugger

I hear you...I would consider myself a stand up guy, western boxing experience with informal TKD and self-taught muay thai. That's why I got into a grappling class. We do MMA on Saturday's but I cannot consistently attend. When I am on the ground, I am constantly thinking, sh1t, if only i could punch or knee right now I wouldn't be stuck.

STI - thanks, now I know what NAGA is, I kept hearing it at school.

MTKrav911

I hear ya. A few months back, this old Lion's Den fighter came by our gym to roll preparing for a fight.

He had easily 20 lbs on me, and we had a good roll for about 13 minutes, he dominated me, but I held on defensively until that SOB neck cranked me.

Then about 20 minutes later we moved to MMA....This big SOB had this white sheep look on hs face and I was laughing. I said, dude you neck cranked me and I didnt cry, now it's time for me to clock you a few times! He laughed and we had a good sparring session.

I love good training partners like that. They work your weakness and you work theirs. It's great for learning.

rugger

So I'm reading the NAGA no gi grappling rules and conclude that if one were to compete, it would be most wise to concentrate on scoring rather than being defensive or simply going for a quick submission win. Take down, guard pass, side control/mount/etc, submission attempt...get up and repeat to rack up scoring...of course a submission is a win, but if one were no so confident with their submissions...

So, I think that the vale tudo style shorts would be best in grappling, since the shorts can be used against you.
"Anything a fighter wears can be used against him/her during the match (Grabbing clothing for example)"
They are tiny little tight shorts with nothing to grab onto. Thoughts?

lwbfl

They can still grab them, it just shows your hiney more with the tightys.

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rugger

I think one would less incline to grab them since they are so small...one might be scared of grabbing too close to the stuff. There is certainly less to grab with the tighties and maybe showing off my tree trunk thighs might intimidate my opponents

lethalweapon

well my friend the point style that you are wanting to use seems very much like a wrestlers point of view at grappling. The things you should pratice the most are your takedowns, your sprawl, your guard pass, and taking the opponents back. Not only does getting your opponents back score the largest number of points but it also pretty much assures victory. Also practice your sweeps and submissions from guard. If I were you I and I was really struggling to submit some one in my guard I would just sweep them or get double underhooks and push out there legs and stand back up. remember to always think offensive even from your guard. Some of there submission attemps might even lead to a possible sub for you( if they go for a kimura in half guard pass the guard and put them in an armbar, watch Matt Hughes vs St. Pierre.) Vale Tudo shorts work but I like my Muay Thai shorts regardless if they are good for grappling or not. Muay Thai rules!

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Fav Fighters: Nate Quarry,Brandon Vera,James Irvin,Karo Parisyan,Hermes Franca,Spencer Fisher,Thiago Alves,Sean Sherk,GSP,AA,Rashad Evans,Renato Sobral,and Rich Franklin.

Quarry is healed! He will be back to rock the MW division in '07.

MTKrav911

The NAGA rules (as well as the NOCAL Gracie Rules) are indicative of sport jiu jitsu.

You get 4 points simply for passing the guard in to someones half guard. Then another 5 points for mounting someone.

Meaning full mount.

But you can't strike at all cause.....(It's Jiu Jitsu)..

So meaning, from the superior mounted position, in order to win, you have to finish with a submission, which, last I checked is either a top key lock, or quick side arm bar or a GI front choke.


In other words, NOTHING MODERN DAY MMA IS ABOUT!

That's the strange irony to it all. Sport jiu jitsu, just like sport TKD, or sport karate, has NO place in modern day MMA... For the experts in sport Jiu Jitsu or sport TKD and karate, they'll find a rude awakening once a seemingly lesser trained opponent dominates them in MMA.... It's all about well roundedness and unfortunately, no matter who teaches it.... Traditional Martial arts, and sorry Jiu Jitsu (and BJJ) are now lobbed in to "Traditional Martial Arts" which dont work stand alone!

lethalweapon

I have never grappled with a Gi before because I train more toward MMA but I have seen GI matches before and they are quite different. How many points for taking the back?

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Fav Fighters: Nate Quarry,Brandon Vera,James Irvin,Karo Parisyan,Hermes Franca,Spencer Fisher,Thiago Alves,Sean Sherk,GSP,AA,Rashad Evans,Renato Sobral,and Rich Franklin.

Quarry is healed! He will be back to rock the MW division in '07.

MTKrav911

Probably 10. Whether you choke them out or not.

From what my BJJ buddies tell me, actual Sport Jiu Jitsu is fairly easier than any sport to score points in.


AND WIN!!!!!

Crashsti

i would concentrate on the clock more than i would on racking up the points. you could try to rack up the points but chances are you will just wear yourself out before the end of the match. time management is so important in these events but its often overlooked. as far as actively looking for submissions? its risky because if you fail you leave yourself open for him to score on you. last thing, the only good submission from the top in NoGI grappling is the armbar, the keylock is best applied from side mount and is ineffective from the mount, you can't apply leverage and its easy to be swept.

rugger

Agree...I think that the idea approach is a fine line between time management and scoring points. I see that the NAGA tournament that's happening this weekend in TX has a single 5 minute round. I am a bit dissappointed to see that weigh in is the same day as the tournament...I was hoping to drop into the middleweight division (I am assuming that NAGA NoGi has weight division similar to most combat sports 171-185), but that means droping 15 pounds of water and waste, which I could easily do if the weigh in was 24 hours prior to the event.

Thanks, always appreciate feedback and advice.

lethalweapon

As I said before be aggresive. If it is only 5 minutes there is no time to loly gag. Takedown your opponent and transition when the time is right. Don't rest unless you are on mount or in your guard. A technique often over looked is the triangle choke from mount top. Not an arm triangle but triangle choke. Also guilliotines from mount top are effective. I believe that you should fight at the weight you feel most explosive at. If you drain your body to much even fighting smaller opponents will not help.

__________________
Fav Fighters: Nate Quarry,Brandon Vera,James Irvin,Karo Parisyan,Hermes Franca,Spencer Fisher,Thiago Alves,Sean Sherk,GSP,AA,Rashad Evans,Renato Sobral,and Rich Franklin.

Quarry is healed! He will be back to rock the MW division in '07.

Crashsti

are you suggesting he try to execute a triangle choke from the mounted position? that might work if we're talking about Eddie Bravo, except were not. the guillotine choke from mount is also unrealistic, it might work but its certainly is'nt among the techniques with a high rate of success. stick to what you're familar with and don't try to do things you just learned the day before.

lethalweapon

Yea your right I was just saying techniques I'm comfortable with. But if you don't think they work I can tell you I use them quite often. I prefer the arm triangle and arm bar, also the key lock is effective when you start it on mount then finish in side mount. The tri-angle from mount is quite easy to do and effective because it is not expected. Watch the Thiago Alves vs Spencer Fisher fight. Look it up on the internet or get royce gracies Ultimate Fighting Techniques. The guillotine from mount is very simple and also hardly ever used so it is pretty unexpected. Watch the TUF fight with Chris Lytle vs Pete Spratt if you don't believe me. Rugger ignore my techniques and don't do them if you don't know them but if your interested they are formidable submissions to add to your arsenal.

__________________
Fav Fighters: Nate Quarry,Brandon Vera,James Irvin,Karo Parisyan,Hermes Franca,Spencer Fisher,Thiago Alves,Sean Sherk,GSP,AA,Rashad Evans,Renato Sobral,and Rich Franklin.

Quarry is healed! He will be back to rock the MW division in '07.