Why don't fighters go for more leg locks? - Fight Forum - MMA - UFC - Boxing - K1

Mickey Finn · 01-21-2008, 02:27 AM

things like achilles locks, ankle locks and heel hooks dont seem like particularly hard moves to complete, but you rarely seem them used in the ufc etc

are they harder to do than they seem? im only about to start bjj classes so at the moment ive just rolled around with my friends, but im usually able to get them quite easily. particularly the achilles lock and the toe hold ankle lock

they would seem like a good move to go for if your opponent has an open guard (the last gamburyan fight) or if your standing and their on their back and theyve got their legs up to defend themselves. it appears that you could just grab a leg and go for a submission

Mulla · 01-21-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey Finn

things like achilles locks, ankle locks and heel hooks dont seem like particularly hard moves to complete, but you rarely seem them used in the ufc etc

are they harder to do than they seem? im only about to start bjj classes so at the moment ive just rolled around with my friends, but im usually able to get them quite easily. particularly the achilles lock and the toe hold ankle lock

they would seem like a good move to go for if your opponent has an open guard (the last gamburyan fight) or if your standing and their on their back and theyve got their legs up to defend themselves. it appears that you could just grab a leg and go for a submission

At a guess Id say its because it leaves you open to gnp. Look at the Arlovski/Pe De Pano fight or Freeman/Mir. Commiting both arms to a sub is quite risky if your opponent is still fresh and unhurt.

But then Im not a fighter so I could be completely wrong

lwbfl · 01-21-2008, 09:06 AM

Unless you get them perfectly, they are easy to defend and few people tap to knee / ankle damage these days. Leg locks also leave you open for counter leg locks, hence the “race to see who can lock it on first” we used to see all the time. Plus, if the opponent defends and gets free, you are on your back. You take a huge chance in either getting subbed yourself, or giving up position.

Crashsti · 01-21-2008, 10:06 AM

you see alot of leg locks in smaller shows where the younger guys are less skilled at defending them. In the bigger shows like the UFC everyone is skilled at both applying and defending so they become a very low percentage submission. Not that they're worthless, performed at the right time they can be a winning move.

The-Iceman-Chuck-Liddell · 01-21-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey Finn

things like achilles locks, ankle locks and heel hooks dont seem like particularly hard moves to complete, but you rarely seem them used in the ufc etc

are they harder to do than they seem? im only about to start bjj classes so at the moment ive just rolled around with my friends, but im usually able to get them quite easily. particularly the achilles lock and the toe hold ankle lock

they would seem like a good move to go for if your opponent has an open guard (the last gamburyan fight) or if your standing and their on their back and theyve got their legs up to defend themselves. it appears that you could just grab a leg and go for a submission

I agree bro. I love my heel hook and ankle locks. Every time I am in guard I usually find I way to get one, or if I am in a scramble. The thing I don't like about them is if you miss you have a bad position.

Crashsti · 01-21-2008, 12:09 PM

Lets not forget the sweat factor. In MMA, once the sweat starts flowing its hard to hold onto a limb, be it an arm or a leg. Things are slightly easier in straight up grappling when you have a gi on to help absorb sweat and add friction.

The-Iceman-Chuck-Liddell · 01-21-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashsti

Lets not forget the sweat factor. In MMA, once the sweat starts flowing its hard to hold onto a limb, be it an arm or a leg. Things are slightly easier in straight up grappling when you have a gi on to help absorb sweat and add friction.

Good point. I do it without a Gi. Sometimes full MMA sometimes not. I would say what I get a hold of a leg it work 80% of the time, but that's not for everyone. Also like I said the other 20% of the time I ended up on my back.

Rocky12233 · 01-21-2008, 12:29 PM

In my gi class I pull them off all the time....Much easier to get a grip of the persons leg/ankle with the pants on.

No gi on the other hand I try to stay away from them because of the obvious sweat factor...It is much harder to hold on and I always find myself in a bad position after my opponent gets loose. Not saying I dont try them, but I will only attempt them if I am against a less skilled opponent....

Come competition time, heel hooks are not allowed so I dont bother messing with those...not to mention you can seriously injure someone if they dont tap in time.

XxGnPxX · 01-21-2008, 08:52 PM

when you go for a leg it leaves the other guys arms free and since its not just jiu jitsu its MMA this leaves you open for strikes.

Mickey Finn · 01-22-2008, 07:23 AM

i can see that if you dont get it theres a good chance youll end up on your back. but if youre a jiu jitsu fighter thats not that bad an outcome.

i can see why people might not tap to ankle damage, but i disagree about the knee. if a heel hook is strongly applied, the damage to the knee can be excruciatingly painful and devastating to the ligaments. thats why theyre banned in many competitions

i think the slippery effect sweat has might be a factor, though im not sure how youd slip out of an achilles lock too easily

Switch · 01-23-2008, 01:22 PM

One fight you might look at is Ken Shamrock vs Rich Franklin. Shamrock was able to apply a very deep leg lock unfortunately Franklin fought through the pain and bounced his head of the canvas with six or so punches.

T-Bone · 01-23-2008, 01:25 PM

That's what I was thinking - it's all about position and leverage.

Dirty Fighter · 01-23-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lwbfl

Leg locks also leave you open for counter leg locks, hence the “race to see who can lock it on first” we used to see all the time.

Reminds me of Shammy and Don Frey when they fought.

Crashsti · 01-23-2008, 01:27 PM

Here is a good example of using a leg attack against a very respected striker.
YouTube - Great Submission - R. Chonan v A. Silva

XxGnPxX · 01-24-2008, 09:07 AM

"position before submission"

Rocky12233 · 01-24-2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxGnPxX

"position before submission"

One of the first things I was taught when I started BJJ...

lwbfl · 01-24-2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxGnPxX

"position before submission"

AMEN!

Mickey Finn · 01-28-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch

One fight you might look at is Ken Shamrock vs Rich Franklin. Shamrock was able to apply a very deep leg lock unfortunately Franklin fought through the pain and bounced his head of the canvas with six or so punches.

shamrock getting finished had nothing to do with the attempted leg lock. that happened about 2 minutes later when he went for a high kick and fell flat on his back, then franklin pounced on him

mepersoner · 01-28-2008, 06:37 PM

Anyone who says that if you are a jit fighter you should not mind fighting off your back obviously does not train. A person should be comfortable there for sure, but it is not where a fighter wants to be, jit or not. Leg locks are okay to go for from guard, but are not as available from there as other submissions, generally. However, going after a leg while you are on top is generally a bad idea because you can get kicked trying to grab it and if it fails, which is likely, it will land you in a worse position than where you started, plus its easy to get punched while performing leg locks.

CapAmericaFTW · 02-01-2008, 02:09 PM

I don't even do jiu-jitsu, and I can tell you that it's much harder to kick when someone's in your guard than it is to punch. Going for a leg lock leaves you open to punches, whereas going for an armbar or kimura leaves them with pretty much only one limb with which to do anything.

I've only seen a couple of successful leg submissions, and none of them started in the guard. (See AA vs. Sylvia I)