Striking vs. Boxing

Crashsti · 03-21-2007, 12:38 PM

in MMA is it more important that you have the skills of an elite boxer or that you are not afraid to throw leather? you see it all the time, guys with highly rated boxing skills get into the cage and act like they are afraid to engage or get hit.

RebLMunkE · 03-21-2007, 12:52 PM

Speaking in terms of striking only Elite kickboxing is far better IMO....That's why so many good boxers have a hard time in MMA, They fear the kicks and takedowns so they try to stay away from those things and the end result is they can't do what they are good at.

Also the reason why guys like Tito have been good in MMA since he has a good wrestling game he does not fear the ground but he also is a good boxer....Not elite but very good so he can get close and use his boxing skills that are much better then most fighters he faces.

Crashsti · 03-21-2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebLMunkE

Speaking in terms of striking only Elite kickboxing is far better IMO....That's why so many good boxers have a hard time in MMA, They fear the kicks and takedowns so they try to stay away from those things and the end result is they can't do what they are good at.

Also the reason why guys like Tito have been good in MMA since he has a good wrestling game he does not fear the ground but he also is a good boxer....Not elite but very good so he can get close and use his boxing skills that are much better then most fighters he faces.

i agree that it pays to have good striking skills, without a doubt. but not everyone has that level of training or even access to it. what about the guys who are training at small gyms around the country without access to proper technique but have no fear of exchanging. sure they won't see the UFC but i feel that a person can do well with limited training as long as they have great cardio and the will to get in there and throw bombs. you see it alot in smaller shows, golden gloves boxers getting KO'd by farm boys that just bull rush you with haymakers.

RebLMunkE · 03-21-2007, 01:13 PM

O yeah no doubt !

If they have good cardio and are throwing unorthodox but powerful bombs in training then get in a fight for far less time doing the same thing that could be scary for someone to face, If they are used to throwing like that and some guy goes in their trying to Pro-Box with them I'd say its going to be lights out most of the time for the boxer.

Daniel · 03-21-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebLMunkE

Speaking in terms of striking only Elite kickboxing is far better IMO....That's why so many good boxers have a hard time in MMA, They fear the kicks and takedowns so they try to stay away from those things and the end result is they can't do what they are good at.

Does it not seem like Kickboxers lack power? Usually when an elite kickboxer who has made the transition to MMA fights, he knows mostly how to score points. Guys like Mark Hominick and Sam Stout are very versatile with their striking and have excellent aim and speed with their punches and kicks, and they flow into those moves well with their practiced footwork, but they lack power. They move in, punch, and then move out very fast.

I think there's a time when it's better to plant yourself in front of your opponent and swing at him full force, but this should in no way be a permanent strategy. A good boxer should be able to avoid bombs and capitalize on the openings presented, like Anderson Silva did to Chris Leben. Leben is a typical brawler, and Leben is living proof that you can't brawl your way through every fight. If he had of been capable of technical boxing, he could have survived with Anderson a bit longer. But if he wasn't capable of brawling, he wouldn't have knocked out so many people. There's a time and a place for everything, and I think a well rounded MMA fighter NEEDS to be a technical boxer, and he needs to be able to throw kicks and when he has a man with a weaker chin and lighter hands in front of him, he needs to swing for the fences.

IrishMike · 03-21-2007, 05:38 PM

I think people are over-looking a massive factor here. The "Boxers" that have competed in MMA are hardly world-class boxers! If they were, then they wouldn't be competing in MMA, they would be in boxing where the bigger purses are! The difference in boxing ability between a world title boxing contender and someone like Stephan Bonner or any other former GG champ in MMA is so huge, that I think comparisons are unfair. You cannot use these men as blue-prints to how effective boxing is in MMA.

lethalweapon · 03-21-2007, 05:58 PM

A good example of boxings effectiveness is Alessio Sakara, He goes in there and throws bombs.

RebLMunkE · 03-21-2007, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

Does it not seem like Kickboxers lack power? Usually when an elite kickboxer who has made the transition to MMA fights, he knows mostly how to score points. Guys like Mark Hominick and Sam Stout are very versatile with their striking and have excellent aim and speed with their punches and kicks, and they flow into those moves well with their practiced footwork, but they lack power. They move in, punch, and then move out very fast.

I think there's a time when it's better to plant yourself in front of your opponent and swing at him full force, but this should in no way be a permanent strategy. A good boxer should be able to avoid bombs and capitalize on the openings presented, like Anderson Silva did to Chris Leben. Leben is a typical brawler, and Leben is living proof that you can't brawl your way through every fight. If he had of been capable of technical boxing, he could have survived with Anderson a bit longer. But if he wasn't capable of brawling, he wouldn't have knocked out so many people. There's a time and a place for everything, and I think a well rounded MMA fighter NEEDS to be a technical boxer, and he needs to be able to throw kicks and when he has a man with a weaker chin and lighter hands in front of him, he needs to swing for the fences.

Well K1 is pretty much the Elite kickboxing in the world.....And not to many of those top guys have come over to MMA two off the top of my head that have will make this next point nicely.

Ernesto Hoost "See Aika's sig LoL" came over to MMA and didn't do very good at all.

Mirko Filipovic came over to MMA and is #2 in the world in pretty much everyone's mind.

Hoost's Technical kickboxing style does not do well in MMA you have to set things up to much to be effective.

Mirkos style of tight explosive kickboxing is great in MMA.

There is a list of great K1 kick boxers that if they knew the MMA game better meaning JJ and takedowns they would be top MMA fighters no doubt.

McDonald is one I would love to see make the move to MMA I think he would be up their with CroCop, He did beat him back in K1.

And down in the K1 MAX division there are a lot of little guys that would probably make Gomi and Diaz look like poor strikers if they got into MMA.

I just watched a shootboxing event from Japan the other day and a few of those guys would kill in MMA and SBing is closer to MMA rules then just str8 kickboxing.

A boxing stance also takes your kicking away to a great extent too.

Crashsti · 03-22-2007, 11:39 AM

i don't want anyone to think i am anti-boxing. i love boxing and i believe that it is important part of MMA. what i am getting at is that you don't feel you need boxing credentials to compete at an early level or any level. i certainly should have been more clear in my initial post but was in a hurry when i created it. if anything i think it can do as much harm as good. i was just watching a KOTC event and Jens Pulver was a commentator, he briefly talked about his boxing and that maybe he needs to do something differant since everyone knows when you fight him he's going to want to box. he laughed and said he likes it too much. you come to the UFC or any promotion and if you have boxing credentials everyone expects you to use them and be awesome, which is'nt always the case.

MTKrav911 · 03-22-2007, 01:09 PM

I think Nick Diaz is brining an interesting aspect of boxing into the sport of MMA. He used his pure boxing skills vs. Joe Riggs and Diego to some extent, and although he landed on them, he didnt really hurt them enough to pull out a victory.

But.. .He definitely boxed the piss out of Gomi. It wasn't even close. It was some of the most beautiful combination boxing I've ever seen in MMA. He was hittin Gomi with lefts and rights, working well off his jab, Gomi didnt know WTF was hitting him. It was in fact almost laughable how many times Gomi got hammered.

It'll be interesting to see where Nick goes with his evolution as an MMA guy and with his boxing. He said it best in his Sherdog Post Fight interview:

.......Gomi hits hard. But I box with guys from all over all the time. If most MMA guys got hit by Gomi the way I got hit, they'd go down. But I box alot of pro boxers, so its all good... BUt, I don't know what the **** he was tryin to do. He tried pullin some Karate **** on me or something so I just kept boxing his ass.. _ Nick Diaz (Post Fight) Pride 33 (Sherdog)

Crashsti · 03-22-2007, 01:17 PM

here is an example of good boxing skills gone bad. its from a book called "A Fighter's Heart" by Sam Sheridan. this guy was in Big Nog's camp the last time he fought Fedor. Nog had been training his boxing like crazy, and his entire camp believed that Nog had the better skills and more important, was faster. well, we've all seen the fight and Nog was not faster. his corner, mid-fight came to that conclusion as well. Fedor beat Big Nog like a drum that night.

POKAI · 03-22-2007, 01:20 PM

a good example to boxing to mma is Jens Pulver..to me its better to train ground game ex. bjj,judo. ect. then boxing then ground game..i see guys who been training ground game then boxing or stand up have been more successful in mma

Crashsti · 03-22-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POKAI

a good example to boxing to mma is Jens Pulver..to me its better to train ground game ex. bjj,judo. ect. then boxing then ground game..i see guys who been training ground game then boxing or stand up have been more successful in mma

i have heard some people in higher places say this as well, especially when it comes to wrestling. you see alot of great wrestlers pick up striking and become good strikers but you rarely see a great striker come along and become a good wrestler. either striking is easier to learn or there is something about learning a ground skill when you're younger.

POKAI · 03-22-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashsti

i have heard some people in higher places say this as well, especially when it comes to wrestling. you see alot of great wrestlers pick up striking and become good strikers but you rarely see a great striker come along and become a good wrestler. either striking is easier to learn or there is something about learning a ground skill when you're younger.

i think its because if you learn ground game first you learn your center of gravity..that make you more grounded so your even harder to take down and you can recover from punches qiuker so makes you harder to ko

Crashsti · 03-22-2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POKAI

i think its because if you learn ground game first you learn your center of gravity..that make you more grounded so your even harder to take down and you can recover from punches qiuker so makes you harder to ko

i thought it probably had more to do with the chance to wrestle. when your in school you have matches every week, if not more often. Combined with constant practice against other team members. you don't really ever get that chance even in large school, there just is'nt the same number of people. striking can be practiced at home on bags or pads, with wrestling you have to have other skilled people around, the more the better.

POKAI · 03-22-2007, 02:06 PM

great example of my post are karo perisian and BJ Penn