Future P4P possibilities

**James WT13B** · 04-17-2009 04:54 PM

Would love ur opinions;

Runners up;
Sherk, Swick, Nogueira, Henderson, Mousassi, Filho

10 Nate Marquardt/Thiago Alves
9 Frank Mir (if he beats Lesnar)
8 Cung Le
7 Winner 'Evans v Machida'
6 BJ Penn
5 Torres
4 Shiya Aoki
3 Fedor
2 Georges St Pierre
1 Anderson Silva

If Anderson Silva retires, Marquardt(10) and Alves(9) have a spot each. maybe this is too near future that it's basically current sorry if it is.

Hopefully you post on too, sure we can get some stuff up about further future p4p. I kinda feel that this is an ok p4p now. But also feel it's got the bigger names too (not always good?)

Am sure there's a better p4p list, please put in your opinion.

Thank you

**Pitbull** · 04-17-2009 05:32 PM

Welcome to the forum, James.

I would do a bit of rearranging and eliminate some of the fighters you've posted.

Guys I would eliminate from a P4P list would be:

-Shinya Aoki - A VERY good grappler but lacks the well-rounded skills necessary to be top 10 status.

-Rashad Evans - A very tough guy, well-rounded, and has come a long way since his TUF days. He doesn't however have any elite level skills, and there are alot of other guys in different weight classes that are also TOUGH and WELL-ROUNDED.

-Cung Le - Hasn't fought enough in MMA to determine his skill level.

-Frank Mir - Good grappler, and thats about it. There are much more gifted grapplers in other weight classes.

-Thiago Alves - A very good striker, but one of his biggest strengths is his size. That alone eliminates him from any P4P list.

-Nate Marqurdt - Kinda like Rashad Evans. Good everywhere, but nothing elite.

Guys that are probably P4P but not in the top 10:

-Miguel Torres - Very good grappler and a decent striker. Its hard to judge his skills, because of the lack of great fighters in his division. He got a true test in Mizugaki in his last fight and failed to finish him within 5 rounds.

My Top 5 P4P list looks like this:

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Anderson Silva
3. BJ Penn
4. Georges St. Pierre
5. Lyoto Machida

I'll write something up in regards to your runner-ups, but its time for the UFC 97 weigh-ins.

**James WT13B** · 04-17-2009 05:43 PM

Thanks 4 welcome. Good 2 get sm ideas out, and recieve some in.

Points well made, what about a future mma p4p. Maybe end of 2010. Excellent point about Cung Le and Thiago Alves by the way.

But what if Rashad beats Lyoto. If that happens I think he's got a good chance of a run of defences. In some opinion the if Rashad could beat Machida that could qualifiy him for p4p status. Would he not be included because of skill set.

This is a bizarre thought, according to 'parallel universe' idea, somewhere there is another GSP who is a natural lightweight competing in the UFC (so their p4p would be different).
The point I make is that we try similar ideas (what if the top 5 p4p fighters were in the same weight class, who's skills win). The relevance is possibly more important than the skill.

I think it's hard to work around relevance.
The skill set apect is important

But does this mean that GSP beat Penn but if Penn's set was better he'd be above GSP?

Or more relevant in fighters that haven't fought eachother yet?

OR if Mir beats Lesnar the continues to dominate (not just Kongo, Carwin but some surprise test?) Maybe meets Fedor down the line and maybe makes a decent fight of it (or even wins, not likely).

Does this mean that because of his skillsets he would still rank behind Bj Penn? I personally wouldn't think so, even though by that time Penn could have notched up many wins too.

So say Cung Le and Thiago Alves (Alves more) have awesome runs. They'd have to fight people of arguably higher skillsets and if they won would this not effect the p4p rankings as much as your top 5 have? (similar accomplishments).

I suppose i'm also considering the future (considereing possible changing of the guard, runs, quality of opponents) which is kindof a different topic. But possibly on your P4P, Alves could beat GSP and not move above him in PvP.

How far would he rise and what if he has a dominating run (share opponents as GSP, gets tested in his game, even wins a rematch).

I definatly agree with you by using this example. Lesnar could beat any number of opponents and get hyped up, boast all he wants, but he'll have to pull something out to be included p4p because in my opinion he doesn't win his fights by much skill.

**Pitbull** · 04-17-2009 05:53 PM

I guess guys could always move up in the rankings and guys could move down.

It's hard for me to project future P4P rankings, because guys are always evolving. So many different things could happen.

BJ could really drop in the rankings if he happens to lose Kenny Florian, but I wouldn't include him in a top 10 P4P list.

Rashad could develop insane striking skills and a sick ground game and could finish his career as the greatest ever.

But who really knows. Its definitely interesting to think about.

**James WT13B** · 04-17-2009 06:08 PM

You're right. I noticed more and more as I was writing, the contradictions.

If it's all evolving then why discuss anyway, and the fact that my 1st list p4p was really not relevant. I suppose time will tell.

Cheers

I'd love to know who do you think will impact p4p the most (prediction) from current outsiders!'

Rashad Evans, Lyoto Machida, Thiago Alves, Frank Mir, Mike Swick, Kenny Florian, Demian Maia, Mousassi, Filho, Cung Le.

All relevant to who wins (and keeps winning). If Rashad gets past Machida and Mir gets past Lesnar - They're my picks. Cung Le and Maia if they're as adaptable as they need to be.
I know these are probably the closest to it obvious though.

**FightFan76** · 04-17-2009 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by James WT13B

Thanks 4 welcome. Good 2 get sm ideas out, and recieve some in.

Points well made, what about a future mma p4p. Maybe end of 2010. Excellent point about Cung Le and Thiago Alves by the way.

But what if Rashad beats Lyoto. If that happens I think he's got a good chance of a run of defences. In some opinion the if Rashad could beat Machida that could qualifiy him for p4p status. Would he not be included because of skill set.

This is a bizarre thought, according to 'parallel universe' idea, somewhere there is another GSP who is a natural lightweight competing in the UFC (so their p4p would be different).
The point I make is that we try similar ideas (what if the top 5 p4p fighters were in the same weight class, who's skills win). The relevance is possibly more important than the skill.

I think it's hard to work around relevance.
The skill set apect is important

But does this mean that GSP beat Penn but if Penn's set was better he'd be above GSP?

Or more relevant in fighters that haven't fought eachother yet?

OR if Mir beats Lesnar the continues to dominate (not just Kongo, Carwin but some surprise test?) Maybe meets Fedor down the line and maybe makes a decent fight of it (or even wins, not likely).

Does this mean that because of his skillsets he would still rank behind Bj Penn? I personally wouldn't think so, even though by that time Penn could have notched up many wins too.

So say Cung Le and Thiago Alves (Alves more) have awesome runs. They'd have to fight people of arguably higher skillsets and if they won would this not effect the p4p rankings as much as your top 5 have? (similar accomplishments).

I suppose i'm also considering the future (considereing possible changing of the guard, runs, quality of opponents) which is kindof a different topic. But possibly on your P4P, Alves could beat GSP and not move above him in PvP.

How far would he rise and what if he has a dominating run (share opponents as GSP, gets tested in his game, even wins a rematch).

I definatly agree with you by using this example. Lesnar could beat any number of opponents and get hyped up, boast all he wants, but he'll have to pull something out to be included p4p because in my opinion he doesn't win his fights by much skill.

Although I dont agree 100% w/ your p4p list I do agree in that fighters should make it based on their accomplishments more so than their skill sets. Also, GSP beat BJ twice not once so regardless of the skill set he earned the spot above BJ. Now in all reality these p4p list really dont mean anything but they are fun to discuss anyway. Interesting thread.....

**James WT13B** · 04-18-2009 04:32 AM

I agree my p4p list is nonsense. (biased 2 mainly UFC bar bigger names). I think the p4p cocept is more interesting because in my opinion it's the compromis between skills and achievement and relativity.

ie. Frank Mir beats Lesnar and stays for defences. Penn plays around moving weight and not defending LW belt properly.

BJ would have to go regardless of skills even though Mir's skills aren't up 2 scratch. Not that Lesnar is scary skills wise, but even the staunchest MMA fan should say - he's possibly the only heavyweight that can neutralise the skills of 90% of the fighters in the divsion.
So there is achievement (especially if he's the only 1 to beat him). Not in a lot of people's eyes enough to impact p4p because of Brock's credentials. I understand that but also in my opinion if he did win the rematch I would rate that more than if BJ defends against the lightweights (although i'd love to see if Guida can do a GSP, I know you're laughing!).

It depends on how it happens of course but if people view BJ as the already dominant LW champ, they must be hoping that he really shines in his defences because surely thats not going to impact heavily on p4p. Mind you on that same note Anderson Silva shouldn't get the respect he gets.

I'm confused. It's probably be interesting to discuss why the top fighters are top,
I.E. Silva is p4p best because ... and this is why he's p4p no1.
Could be;

'His skills, dominance in division, destroy all opponents/standout performances, beat accomplished quality fighters unlike others, some losses but some unusual circumstance, on a run, has passed the test striking and also on the ground.

But moved up a weight but still needs to accomplish more, perhaps skills/physicallity not tested as much as others ie. (Fedor slammed on head) and, large/strong for his weight (even the next one up).

There's pros and cons so evidently skills are regarded highly or his skills are so good (and other pros) that it overshadows the cons. How much of this is to do with the MW division? Are any other MW in p4p status?

What do you think?
Is there anywhere this has been up already, if so, please add your opinion anyway no matter if you take 10 seconds.

I think the winner of Machida/Evans goes into top 10 p4p pretty soon regardless of skills.

**James WT13B** · 04-18-2009 04:38 AM

Thanks for pointing out also that the P4P lists are just a bit of fun because it does seem that i'm picking holes in others' views, but I am of mine too.

It just seems like most P4P are different (which is great) but can't there be a discussed criteria instead.

I.E. Skills, achievements, relativity/reality (size/division limits/advantages), maybe time in game/record, opponent quality, how they've been tested and put through the fire (Fedor surely), evaluation of performance/dominance.

I know it's very general but I don't read about this very often. (doesn't mean it's not up or anything or that i'm 3 years behnd this discussion or something).

IF ANYBODY CAN SEE OTHER CRITERIA PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS

**rubberguardgogo** · 04-19-2009 10:04 PM

maia, rashad, and swick look like good possibilities to me......

**James WT13B** · 04-20-2009 04:21 AM

I like Rashad already, Swick too, actually I agree with Maia too. They'v all faced top competition to some extent.

Would it take for them to win the titles (Rashad to beat Lyoto) to move them nto the mix. I say Rashad is that 1 fight away. Swick and Maia would have to defend a few times for me to progress in the same way.

Maybe Maia get a TKO or something. It would be hard to push a pure submissions guy above somebody like Machida (if he loses), but then again I originally included Aoki in my list so ... i'll shut up.

I still hink Cung Le has a great chance of having an exiting fight with Silva. I think their styles would go great in a fight (though what sometimes what happens is fighters use a gameplan instead

I would love to see those 2 striking and to see their chins'. When was the last time Anderson faced that level of striker (Marquardt?, Franklin!, Henderson!!) I don't know if these guys matched up as well.

**Jenkins83** · 04-21-2009 07:41 AM

I definitely think Rashad Evans should be somewhere on the best P4P list right now. He has already accomplished so much in the LHW division defeating everyone the UFC has thrown in front of him and becoming the first and so far only undefeated UFC champion in UFC history. All of this is especially impressive considering he is one of the smallest guys in the LHW division and could easily drop to MW if he wanted which gives him an even bigger reason to be considered one of the best P4P in the world.

**James WT13B** · 04-21-2009 09:03 AM

The consistant underdog

If he beats Machida I wonder where he'll come in2 it. In my eyes it'd be an injustice. Hard 2 remember he's the only undefeated champ. WOW. In that division too.

**DirtyDave** · 04-23-2009 05:26 AM

Whoever wins outta Rashad/ Machida is definitely in the top 10 p4p IMO. Maia needs to display some improved striking before he gets anywhere near my top 10 list. I'd also have to say if Faber wins his rematch with Brown he's back on my list.

On a side note, I really really really really wanna see Faber vs. Torres. Mainly because I think Miguel can take it, and it would move him up into the top 3 mix with Fedor, A.Silva, and GSP IMO.

**Badfish** · 04-23-2009 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jenkins83

I definitely think Rashad Evans should be somewhere on the best P4P list right now. He has already accomplished so much in the LHW division defeating everyone [1] the UFC has thrown in front of him and becoming the first and so far only undefeated UFC champion [2] in UFC history. All of this is especially impressive considering he is one of the smallest guys in the LHW division [3] and could easily drop to MW if he wanted which gives him an even bigger reason to be considered one of the best P4P in the world.

1. He didn't defeat Ortiz.
2. Machida will change that.
3. Really? I never felt that he had a size disadvantage at LHW. I can understand saying he's a small HW, but LHW seems to suit his size, IMO.

**StrikeHARD** · 04-23-2009 07:13 PM

Hi, and welcome!

My top 5 Pound for Pound list would look something like this...

1) Fedor
2) Georges St. Pierre
3) Anderson Silva
4) BJ Penn
5) Miguel Torres

Some of the others, who didn't quite make it would be: Minotauro Nogueira, Andre Arlovski, Lyoto Machida, Uriah Faber and Yoshihiro Akiyama.

I also think that if things keep going the way they are, then Alistair Overeem will be a big challenge for anyone. Would really like to see him against Fedor, and a Lesnar vs. Overeem match would be great.

**RampageQJ** · 07-27-2009 10:13 AM

1.Fedor
2.GSP
3.Machida
4.Brown
5.BJ

**CapAmericaFTW** · 07-27-2009 11:13 AM

If all of the world's best were in the same weight class...Lyoto would dominate FO EVA!

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