Bruce Lee -- grappler? - Fight Forum - MMA - UFC - Boxing - K1

subgenius · 10-05-2006, 07:51 PM

In another thread in these forums (Sherk vs Florian) a question was asked: (quoting Grave) "I often wonder if Bruce Lee could hold his own against a top BJJ-guy in (the) UFC. Sure Bruce's standing JKD (Jeet Kune Do) was supposed to be legendary, but in a ground fight against a BJJ specialist, what could he really do?" (I did a few minor edits there, just for clarity.)

I replied that Bruce Lee had shown ground fighting skills in his unfinished film Game of Death. That had me thinking about an article that I had bookmarked a long while back that I thought some here might find interesting. It is an interesting website as well.

Was Bruce Lee a fake master?

A true renaissance man, Bruce Lee was a talented artist, poet, philosopher, writer and actor, apart from being a formidable fighter. Bruce Lee can be considered a prophet in some ways. He combined boxing punches, grappling, low and high kicks in a unique style that was criticised vastly by most traditional martial artists at the time. Today all mixed martial artists are training in a similar way. The difference is that he was brilliant enough to do so more than 35 years ago. If you don’t believe me, watch the opening scene of “Enter the Dragon”. That was a true free fight event.

Back in Lee’s era, no training equipment was available. He had to invent it. His focus gloves and his fighting gloves are very similar to the ones that are used in MMA training today. If you see some techniques in his books (and his films), you will find out that his style can still be used in a ring effectively. The techniques used in his movies are a bit flashier but full of martial arts wisdom. Guess what? He finished most of his opponents with grappling. In "Way of the Dragon " he finishes Chuck Norris with a neck break. In "Game of Death" he beat Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with a headlock. In “The Big Boss” the final fight ends with a mount.

Bruce always seemed so far ahead of his era. The techniques that are used today in JKD schools are (in my opinion, and I don't mean it as an insult) too influenced by Wing Tsun, Kali and Fillipino martial arts. I mean, I haven't seen a JKD guy that can really kick. Come on guys, Bruce was a great kicker.

Bruce proved to everyone that it is not how much you train, but how smart you train. Many people have said a lot of bad things about Bruce. Some claim that his physique was too skinny to withstand a powerful blow. Others say that although he embodied the use of free weights in his training, he could not lift as much as today’s champions do. Others say that he was not really ring proven. I have seen all his movies and studied them very carefully and I must say that I learned more by watching his movies alone than I ever learned in any seminar or by watching any training tape. The techniques used in his books are the most inspiring I have ever seen. There are many books out there but every book has a technique or two that are useless. His books have none.

Bruce Lee joined tradition and common sense for the very first time in modern martial arts. He could have just accepted that he was a student of one of the last martial arts Masters, Yip Man, could have just been a representative of Wing Tsun kung fu in the US and just made money. But Bruce Lee had a restless spirit. Sooner or later he found out the main weakness of Wing Tsun: its attacks are not strong enough. Some people will just not go down with a few punches. Today we see in mixed martial arts events that some fighters can take several good blows in the head and still be able to grab you and take you down.

Bruce created a unique style of fighting which is very effective in the way he used it. Here are some strong points:

1. He used kicks to the head. If he did not use them (like some people claim) he would not train for them. Kicks to the head CAN be very effective, especially roundhouse kicks. I have seen hundreds of fights. I haven’t seen anyone take a good roundhouse kick to the head and not go down. Even a tough fighter like Don Frye could not survive against a good roundhouse kick thrown to him by Jerome Le Banner.

2. He was one of the first to use boxing training methods and protective equipment in sparring.

3. He explained why a technique is effective before he taught it. Back then, in other martial arts, you either accepted tradition or you were out of the school.

4. He trained his punches and kicks against live targets (like focus gloves) or against the fearsome body bag. The noise of a snapping gi was not enough for him. He had to know that his attacks were effective.

5. He was the first martial arts master that stressed the importance of a cardiovascular workout. He was really tired of seeing big-bellied masters that would not last a single round against a boxer in a ring. For Bruce, the best kind of endurance and cardiovascular training was running.

6. Most martial arts make a common mistake in their training. They train their students against attacks that are used in a stiff and robot-like manner. No enemy ever attacks like that. And you can be sure that most attackers will not attack you with a reverse punch or using a traditional martial arts move. Bruce trained his students against boxing punches and tae kwon do kicks.

The list can go on forever. Bruce Lee contributed a lot to martial arts. Some can argue that he was just a man but in the end isn’t everyone? He will be in our hearts forever. Bruce Lee is considered by our website the greatest martial artist of the 20th century and no one can change our minds.

Gus Fant
Executive Editor
www.fightingmaster.com

w0264007 · 10-05-2006, 09:12 PM

Bruce Lee was very good, but he was not a fighter in the same sense that the Gracies are fighters. He was an actor and philosopher. He did a great service for TMA by bringing them into focus, but helped to create and perpetuate the image of a flashy striker who is invincible.

I respect the man, and think his movies are great, but I won't comment on how competitive I think he would have been in MMA.

Oh what the Hell, WAR LEE!!

Greenman · 10-05-2006, 09:20 PM

In myth and fantasy Bruce Lee > all MMA fighters, so I say let us old fogies who used to watch Bruce Lee movie marathons on Friday Night and Shogun marathons on Saturday Nights keep our fantasies.

w0264007 · 10-05-2006, 09:36 PM

I recently have been rewatching all my old Martial arts VHS tapes. After watching MMA, it all looks like pro wrestling to me.

In order of best to worst:

1) The street fighter-sonny chiba (spec-frickin'-tacular)
2) Return of the Dragon-Bruce Lee (almost believable at times)
3) Enter the Dragon-Bruce Lee (hardcore TMA action at its finest)
4) Rumble in the Bronx-Jackie Chan (plus extra props for the stunts)
5) Mr. Nice Guy-Jackie Chan (looks like circus performers)
6) Kickboxer-Van Dam (aweful)
7) Blood sport-Van Dam (painful)

MTKrav911 · 10-05-2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

In another thread in these forums (Sherk vs Florian) a question was asked: (quoting Grave) "I often wonder if Bruce Lee could hold his own against a top BJJ-guy in (the) UFC. Sure Bruce's standing JKD (Jeet Kune Do) was supposed to be legendary, but in a ground fight against a BJJ specialist, what could he really do?" (I did a few minor edits there, just for clarity.)

I replied that Bruce Lee had shown ground fighting skills in his unfinished film Game of Death. That had me thinking about an article that I had bookmarked a long while back that I thought some here might find interesting. It is an interesting website as well.

Was Bruce Lee a fake master?

A true renaissance man, Bruce Lee was a talented artist, poet, philosopher, writer and actor, apart from being a formidable fighter. Bruce Lee can be considered a prophet in some ways. He combined boxing punches, grappling, low and high kicks in a unique style that was criticised vastly by most traditional martial artists at the time. Today all mixed martial artists are training in a similar way. The difference is that he was brilliant enough to do so more than 35 years ago. If you don’t believe me, watch the opening scene of “Enter the Dragon”. That was a true free fight event.

Back in Lee’s era, no training equipment was available. He had to invent it. His focus gloves and his fighting gloves are very similar to the ones that are used in MMA training today. If you see some techniques in his books (and his films), you will find out that his style can still be used in a ring effectively. The techniques used in his movies are a bit flashier but full of martial arts wisdom. Guess what? He finished most of his opponents with grappling. In "Way of the Dragon " he finishes Chuck Norris with a neck break. In "Game of Death" he beat Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with a headlock. In “The Big Boss” the final fight ends with a mount.

Bruce always seemed so far ahead of his era. The techniques that are used today in JKD schools are (in my opinion, and I don't mean it as an insult) too influenced by Wing Tsun, Kali and Fillipino martial arts. I mean, I haven't seen a JKD guy that can really kick. Come on guys, Bruce was a great kicker.

Bruce proved to everyone that it is not how much you train, but how smart you train. Many people have said a lot of bad things about Bruce. Some claim that his physique was too skinny to withstand a powerful blow. Others say that although he embodied the use of free weights in his training, he could not lift as much as today’s champions do. Others say that he was not really ring proven. I have seen all his movies and studied them very carefully and I must say that I learned more by watching his movies alone than I ever learned in any seminar or by watching any training tape. The techniques used in his books are the most inspiring I have ever seen. There are many books out there but every book has a technique or two that are useless. His books have none.

Bruce Lee joined tradition and common sense for the very first time in modern martial arts. He could have just accepted that he was a student of one of the last martial arts Masters, Yip Man, could have just been a representative of Wing Tsun kung fu in the US and just made money. But Bruce Lee had a restless spirit. Sooner or later he found out the main weakness of Wing Tsun: its attacks are not strong enough. Some people will just not go down with a few punches. Today we see in mixed martial arts events that some fighters can take several good blows in the head and still be able to grab you and take you down.

Bruce created a unique style of fighting which is very effective in the way he used it. Here are some strong points:

1. He used kicks to the head. If he did not use them (like some people claim) he would not train for them. Kicks to the head CAN be very effective, especially roundhouse kicks. I have seen hundreds of fights. I haven’t seen anyone take a good roundhouse kick to the head and not go down. Even a tough fighter like Don Frye could not survive against a good roundhouse kick thrown to him by Jerome Le Banner.

2. He was one of the first to use boxing training methods and protective equipment in sparring.

3. He explained why a technique is effective before he taught it. Back then, in other martial arts, you either accepted tradition or you were out of the school.

4. He trained his punches and kicks against live targets (like focus gloves) or against the fearsome body bag. The noise of a snapping gi was not enough for him. He had to know that his attacks were effective.

5. He was the first martial arts master that stressed the importance of a cardiovascular workout. He was really tired of seeing big-bellied masters that would not last a single round against a boxer in a ring. For Bruce, the best kind of endurance and cardiovascular training was running.

6. Most martial arts make a common mistake in their training. They train their students against attacks that are used in a stiff and robot-like manner. No enemy ever attacks like that. And you can be sure that most attackers will not attack you with a reverse punch or using a traditional martial arts move. Bruce trained his students against boxing punches and tae kwon do kicks.

The list can go on forever. Bruce Lee contributed a lot to martial arts. Some can argue that he was just a man but in the end isn’t everyone? He will be in our hearts forever. Bruce Lee is considered by our website the greatest martial artist of the 20th century and no one can change our minds.

Gus Fant
Executive Editor
www.fightingmaster.com

Bruce Lee was more a philosopher than a fighter.

I mean he met his wife in Berkeley for crying out loud. No offense, if the "legends" are true, and kung fu masters came after him??? No wonder he's dead. He based himself in the most passive liberal communities he could... Berkeley!

Bruce Lee was an actor. Plain and simple. A martial arts actor.... I know that in some certain "sects" that's sacrilige... But as far as "reality" is concerned....

More than likely, with my knowledge I could keep Bruce Lee in check.

I have a blue belt in Machado Jiu Jitsu, a black belt in WTF TKD and gold medal in the 1992 championships in fighting in my div, and constantly get my butt kicked by the Caesar Gracie camp...

But that's just geography..... I happen to live near them so t herefore train with them.

Bruce Lee was a great entertainer. Movie Star, etc etc etc.... But he wasn't a FIGHTER!!!!!!And by some chance he "showed" ground fighting was incidental to make the movie look better for theatrics!

In other words, Bruce Lee knew NOTHING about ground fighting, but because the director said.... GRAPPLE or whatever, Lee, did it to his best ability.

And that was his strength... He never professed to be a fighter...But he sure as hell was one helluva Martial Arts Movie star!!!!!

and that's REALITY!

subgenius · 10-05-2006, 10:31 PM

You may have been able to defeat him. I mean, if he had lived, he would be sixty-six years old. If he had the last thirty-three years to progress, then I am convinced that he would have gone a lot farther. I think it is a leap to say that he was "just an actor" and so forth. He clearly WAS NOT simply some stunt guy actor or stage-fighting MA like Jackie Chan. Jet Le has more fighting skills than Jackie Chan for sure, and Bruce Lee was worlds ahead of Jet Le.

By the way, no Chinese Kung-Fu masters or whatever had a hand in Bruce Lee's death. Bruce Lee's death was officially attributed to Cerebral Edema. Dr. R. R. Lycette of Queen Elizabeth Hospital determined that the swelling in the brain, and Lee's untimely death, was the result of an adverse reaction to one of the compounds in the prescription Equagesic tablet. The autopsy also revealed traces of cannabis in his body although doctors were certain it did not contribute to his death. Bruce Lee's brain swelled up from 1400 grams to over 1500 grams.

There are a ton of quotes from people that have really had very real fights with Bruce Lee that would laugh at what you said in your post. If you like, then I will post them. It will be like an avalanche fell on you, but I will do it. Believe me when I say that I have quite a few.

And, Bruce Lee rarely EVER had anyone choreograph his fights but himself. No directors sat by saying, "Okay -- grapple!" Bruce Lee set up his own fights and he decided what he would use to win. And, like in Enter the Dragon, some of the fights were real.

subgenius · 10-05-2006, 10:55 PM

I came across this bit of information a while back: In 2004, UFC president Dana White credited Bruce Lee as the "father of mixed martial arts". I thought some here might find that interesting.

MTKrav911 · 10-05-2006, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

You may have been able to defeat him. I mean, if he had lived, he would be sixty-six years old. If he had the last thirty-three years to progress, then I am convinced that he would have gone a lot farther. I think it is a leap to say that he was "just an actor" and so forth. He clearly WAS NOT simply some stunt guy actor or stage-fighting MA like Jackie Chan. Jet Le has more fighting skills than Jackie Chan for sure, and Bruce Lee was worlds ahead of Jet Le.

By the way, no Chinese Kung-Fu masters or whatever had a hand in Bruce Lee's death. Bruce Lee's death was officially attributed to Cerebral Edema. Dr. R. R. Lycette of Queen Elizabeth Hospital determined that the swelling in the brain, and Lee's untimely death, was the result of an adverse reaction to one of the compounds in the prescription Equagesic tablet. The autopsy also revealed traces of cannabis in his body although doctors were certain it did not contribute to his death. Bruce Lee's brain swelled up from 1400 grams to over 1500 grams.

There are a ton of quotes from people that have really had very real fights with Bruce Lee that would laugh at what you said in your post. If you like, then I will post them. It will be like an avalanche fell on you, but I will do it. Believe me when I say that I have quite a few.

And, Bruce Lee rarely EVER had anyone choreograph his fights but himself. No directors sat by saying, "Okay -- grapple!" Bruce Lee set up his own fights and he decided what he would use to win. And, like in Enter the Dragon, some of the fights were real.

That what was the beauty of Bruce Lee. The fact tha he did his own stuff on film. In many ways, jackie chan was and probably is the next Bruce Lee.

Then again, Jakie is retired now, and even Jet Li...And sorry Om BAK is no Jet LI, No Bruce Lee, and definitley NOT a Jackie Chan!

"Van damme has got nothing to do with. Nothing to do with............JACKIE CHAN!"

AllAboutTheGame · 10-05-2006, 11:40 PM

Bruce is a great performer... i think we all agree to that
but can he stand in a real MMA fight?
personally I think he can... a lot of his training and moves are effective
and some are just fancy moves...
however, if you put him into a cage with an average person... the odds of him beat the **** out of him is big...
but against fighters today.... he might not do so well
just as fighters 10 years ago (gracie) stands no chance with the well rounded fighters now......
I do think he have a bit of knowledge about grappling... but not a whole lot
and might not be really effective either...
and people seems to be mistaken that MOVIE STARS ONLY ACTS
BUT THE TRUTH IS... HE REALLY IS A MMAist... AND HE WOULD BEAT THE LIVING HELL OUT OF MOST PEOPLE AT HIS TIME

subgenius · 10-06-2006, 11:46 AM

The debate about could Bruce Lee be a champion today in MMA is really a weak debate at best. If he were alive today, as stated before, he would be sixty-six years old.

Okay, assume that Bruce Lee was 30 in 1993. Would he have been able to defeat Royce Gracie? How can we ever know? Rocye, to my knowledge, never fought anyone highly trained in Jeet Kune Do -- much less the person that invented JKD. If Bruce Lee were 30 today, then I think the playing field would be a lot more even. But, that is because Lee would have been 17 in 1993. He would have definately studied BJJ and many other forms. He would likely not have invented JKD.

Here is a picture of Bruce Lee in his prime:

I do not see many MMA fighters with that level of conditioning. The quotes that I found regarding Lee's stregnth and power would surprise many people here.

MTKrav911 · 10-06-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

The debate about could Bruce Lee be a champion today in MMA is really a weak debate at best. If he were alive today, as stated before, he would be sixty-six years old.

Okay, assume that Bruce Lee was 30 in 1993. Would he have been able to defeat Royce Gracie? How can we ever know? Rocye, to my knowledge, never fought anyone highly trained in Jeet Kune Do -- much less the person that invented JKD. If Bruce Lee were 30 today, then I think the playing field would be a lot more even. But, that is because Lee would have been 17 in 1993. He would have definately studied BJJ and many other forms. He would likely not have invented JKD.

Here is a picture of Bruce Lee in his prime:

I do not see many MMA fighters with that level of conditioning. The quotes that I found regarding Lee's stregnth and power would surprise many people here.

Good point!

I'm sure he would've done alright. People also act like Judo and Jiu Jitsu wasnt around in the 70's.

Crashsti · 10-06-2006, 12:17 PM

anyone who has read any of the works written by Bruce Lee know that he was a martial artist before he was an actor. at the time alot of what he was doing and writting was way ahead of anyone else at the time. the most important fact was that he never limited himself to anything. he sought out information all the time. the only problem is that Bruce was a product of the 60's and 70's. training techniques and nutrition back then can be considered stone age by todays standards. now, if Bruce Lee had access to today's training methods and nutrition i believe he could've easily been a great MMA fighter. why? not because of his physical gifts, but because he was driven to succeed. he was determined to be the best he could be at everything and that included acting.

subgenius · 10-06-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashsti

anyone who has read any of the works written by Bruce Lee know that he was a martial artist before he was an actor. at the time alot of what he was doing and writting was way ahead of anyone else at the time. the most important fact was that he never limited himself to anything. he sought out information all the time. the only problem is that Bruce was a product of the 60's and 70's. training techniques and nutrition back then can be considered stone age by todays standards. now, if Bruce Lee had access to today's training methods and nutrition i believe he could've easily been a great MMA fighter. why? not because of his physical gifts, but because he was driven to succeed. he was determined to be the best he could be at everything and that included acting.

While I think that point is well made, I did want to add some clips of stuff that I found that might make you rethink what Bruce Lee did and thought concerning nutrition and training:

Physical fitness and nutrition

Bruce Lee felt that many martial artists of his day did not spend enough time on physical conditioning. He did not resort to traditional bodybuilding techniques to build mass; he was more interested in speed and power.

The weight training program that Lee used during a stay in Hong Kong in 1965 indicated biceps curls of 36kg (79 lbs) and eight repetitions for endurance. This translates to an estimated one repetition maximum of 50kg, (110 lbs) placing Lee in approximately the 100th percentile for the 55 to 64 kilogram weight class (121-141 Lbs).

Lee believed that the abdominal muscles were one of the most important muscle groups for a martial artist, since virtually every movement requires some degree of abdominal work. Perhaps more importantly, the "abs" are like a shell, protecting the ribs and vital organs. Bruce Lee's washboard abs did not come from mere abdominal training; he was also a proponent of cardiovascular conditioning and would regularly run, jump rope, and ride a stationary bicycle. A typical exercise for Lee would be running two to six miles in fifteen to forty-five minutes.

Another element in Bruce Lee's quest for abdominal definition was nutrition. According to Linda Lee, soon after he moved to the United States, Bruce started to take nutrition seriously and developed an interest in health foods and high-protein drinks. He ate lean meat sparingly and consumed large amounts of fruits and vegetables.

Chuck Norris: "Lee, pound for pound, might well have been one of the strongest men in the world, and certainly one of the quickest."

Herb Jackson: "The biggest problem in designing equipment for Bruce was that he'd go through it so damn fast. I had to reinforce his wooden dummy with automobile parts so he could train on it without breaking it. I had started to build him a mobile dummy that could actually attack and retreat to better simulate "live" combat, sadly Bruce died before the machine was built. It would have been strung up by big high-tension cables that I was going to connect between two posts, one on either side of his backyard. The reason for the machine was simply because no one could stand up to his full force punches and kicks, Bruce's strength and skill had evolved to a point where he had to fight machines."

"He never trained in a gym, he thought he could concentrate better at home, so he worked out on his patio. He had a small weight set, something like a standard 100 lb cast-iron set. In addition, he had a 310 lb Olympic barbell set, a bench press and some dumbbells, both solid and adjustable."

"Bruce used to beat all other comers at this type of wrist wrestling and even joked that he wanted to be world champion at it."

Joe Lewis (world HW champion boxer and student of JKD): "Bruce was incredibly strong for his size. He could take a 75 lb barbell and from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest, he could slowly stick his arms out, lock them and hold the barbell there for 20 seconds, that's pretty damn tough for a guy who at the time only weighed 138 lb. I know 200 lb weight lifters who can't do that."

"I never stood in front of another human who was as quick as him. He not only had the quickness, but he had the inner confidence to muster the conviction to do so. I've seen others who had the speed, but lack conviction or vice versa. He was like Ali, he had both. I stood before both of these men, so I know."

"If Bruce Lee wasn´t the greatest martial artist of all time, then certainly he is the number one candidate."

Crashsti · 10-06-2006, 12:31 PM

oh i am well aware of what Bruce did for training and nutrition. Bruce is really what got me started in the martial arts and later into MMA. i have an entire shelf of my book cabinet devoted to Bruce Lee books and articles. the man's skills should'nt be judged by his movies. if i had to vote i would put Bruce as the #1 martial artist of all time. we can't really judge his ability as a sport fighter since he never competed in what we call MMA today.

MTKrav911 · 10-06-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashsti

oh i am well aware of what Bruce did for training and nutrition. Bruce is really what got me started in the martial arts and later into MMA. i have an entire shelf of my book cabinet devoted to Bruce Lee books and articles. the man's skills should'nt be judged by his movies. if i had to vote i would put Bruce as the #1 martial artist of all time. we can't really judge his ability as a sport fighter since he never competed in what we call MMA today.

I think Bruce pretty much everyone started in their particular martial arts/fighting endeavors.

Good Joe Lewis quote BTW.

I've met him once and he's quite the character and has a unique perspective on fighting. Interesting man.

w0264007 · 10-06-2006, 05:34 PM

Bruce Lee trained with gene Lebell in Judo and wrestling. He was no slouch on the ground. He was super quick and had a lot of striking power. That having been said, he never tested himself in a fight in public, and his one account of winning a fight behind closed doors, was before he developed JKD. He said he won, but his opponent said that he won. Lee declined the opportunity for a public rematch.

w0264007 · 10-09-2006, 07:09 PM

I didn't mean to kill the thread. I was just trying to stir the pot. Lee was super quick, super strong, super fit, and super powerful. I think he would do well standing,a nd could adapt on the ground. He had the ability to do wel, but may have lacked the mental aspect of fighting. we'll never know because he never tested himself.

subgenius · 10-10-2006, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w02640