mepersoner

I didn't say better than anybody's, I said better than everyone's. Very big difference. Arona isn't as good at subs, but has better control from the top. That's actually true for a lot of good wrestlers as well, better control from the top than Nog. Nog has a better sub game and an excellent open guard.

I can compare their accomplishments on the ground. Arona has won the ADCC - Nog hasn't. I explained in the reply before this how Arona is better in certain situations on the ground.

I was really referring to his takedowns really. Nog does not have great takedowns. Being "the best" does not make you the "best" at everything. Case and point - Coleman has better takedowns and top control than ANYONE in any MMA organization in the world. Does this make Coleman the best? No, because he doesn't have very great subs and he has pretty average sub-defense. We also don't know how well he does off his back, not that it matters, who has put Coleman on his back? Now if you tell me Nog has better takedowns and control than Coleman because Nog is the best ground fighter - I will proceed to laugh. Nog's thing his excellent guard and subs, that's what makes him the best, not his takedowns and top control.

I didn't say Sak had a better ground game. However, I'd saythey're equal except guard. I think they're pretty even in most other aspects, Sakuraba's turtle is probably better. In terms of pure skill that is, Nog could out strength Sak though.

I haven't seen the first fight, so I can only comment on the second. The only time Silva was in trouble Arona passed and the round ended. All other times his guard completely neutralized Arona's offense. Silva wasn't at risk for anything.

You're talking about Pride's Middleweight champion - who has only lost via decision since becoming said champion. Don't count him out. He won't lay in Nog's guard, he'll try to keep it standing, and Nog just doesn't have the takedowns that Arona has.

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SeikanJudanski

Dude so what are you saying? either you speak about certain aspects of his ground game, or his ground game overall. When somebody says, his ground game is just as good as everybodies, then he is speaking of overall abilities.
His groudn game is overall better than everybody else. You can put money on that. I also
don´t agree that Nog is not good at top control, he just has his own style, and uses what is most effective. Arona is a pitbull, always in somebodies guard trying to ground and pound. Well, he has not become champion doing this. Don´t blame Nog for being the smarter fighter.

Nog has submitted almost everybody he has faced in Pride. This is no accomplishment for you on the ground? You are taking the ADCC, a pure wrestling submission tournament, and saying because Arona has won it, more than once, he is better than Big Nog. Well this is not even comparable. Bring me Arona against Big Nog in a ADCC match, then you can compare them. Nog lost to Ricco in the ADCC, I don´t hear you saying Ricco´s ground game is better. Once again bring the OVERALL skill level, not "certain situations". Big Nog if I remember correctly only fought in one Tournament in the ADCC. By the way the ADCC, ranks Big Nog at #4 in the world, Arona is not even mentioned in the top 10.

Nog doesn´t have great takedowns, ok, this can only come from somebody who likes to see wrestling takedowns ´ala Kerr, Coleman or Arona. The takedown doesn´t always have to be wrestling style. BJJ has many great takedown techniques, Nog has mastered each of them.

Once again you have said above,

Glad you are now admitting that he is the best, kinda contradicting yourself there, but it´s ok. Maybe you have come to realize that it´s OVERALL ability and not just parts. And once again, he has great takedowns. They just don´t look like coleman´s. Actually when you say wrestling and mention Arona or Coleman, or the ADCC, you should be aware that the Gracies owned the ADCC is lighter weight class, this shows you the affectiveness of BJJ over pure Wrestling, Arona is also a BJJ fighter. Big Nog is a better BJJ fighter than Arona or anybody else in Chute Boxing or the Brasilian Top Team.

What you said in the original post was..

Now you are saying they are equal except the guard and preety even in most aspects. Sak is seriously a living legend, and is known to have pulled out a trick or two out of his hat, so I can´t comment on if he would lose to Nog on the ground or not, however I think he would lose, and "most probably" on the ground.

I see you didn´t go into Rampage´s Wrestling being better than Nog´s, please explain why. Please explain to me why you think Rampage´s wrestling is better than Nog´s. Rampage has never claimed to be a good wrestler, and most of his matches he didn´t win with Wrestling moves. You must know of Rampage something we don´t know, because I don´t know what you are basing it on. Maybe that´s why you didn´t go into it.

I suggest you watch a few fights before making general comments about somebody not ever being in trouble. He was getting schooled on the ground by Arona, but Silva is one tough cookie.

If Silva can dish out bombs like Fedor did, which he can´t, Nog will chew them and spit them out. Silva doesn´t have the power or the skills to control Nog like Fedor on the ground, so he would need to ko him. But Silva is known to throw haymakers and if Nog catches him right, and takes him down, it will be all Nog. Silva has lost to a few fighters now in Pride, Nog has only lost to Fedor. CropCop is the better striker, and has the better takedown defense than Silva. Infact, I would say Mirko is probably the most dangerous striker in the world. He still got submitted by Big Nog. Striking doesn´t mean anything when it comes to fighting against Minotauro, you have to take it to the ground with him, just like Fedor did. Silva is not Fedor.

The whole discussion started when you said Silva is a bad match for Nog, because Nog´s ground game is not that good. Well, now we have seen that you only mean parts of his ground game, but still obviously as we see above, admitting that he is the best. You could have saved us all alot of typing, had you just not made a comment about Nog´s ground not being that good. Saying Nog´s ground game is average or just like everybody else´s is like saying.. CroCop´s kicks are average, or his striking.

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SeikanJudanski

I´m not sure how many of Big Nog´s fights you have seen, but I am going to make a HL clip this week, and upload it to Youtube. Until then I am sure you have seen this one, it´s preety nice. Doesn´t have his most recent wins, but a few classic ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmKzu...earch=nogueira

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mepersoner

I've seen Sapp, Fedor, Cro Cop, Natsula, Ricco, Herring, Coleman. I think that's it, but those are the ones that come to mind. I've seen highlights of the rest.

Is English your first language? I'm asking because I don't think you understood what I said. Here is my quote:

That doesn't say it's "just as good as everybodies." It says it's not "100% better than everyone's." I also said his BJJ for MMA is the best in the world. What does that mean, well, I could see it taken as maybe there are a few people who are his match, or, as how I meant it, that there are certain aspects of his ground game that are *not* better than everyone else's.

Fedor has a better ground game. He's proven this by going to the ground with Nog every single fight and coming out victorious. If Nog's ground game is better, why has Fedor won both fights that went to the end on the ground?

I didn't say he's not good in top control, I said he's not *as* good as some others are. His strength is in guard. I didn't say he had a weak top game or weak control, I just said there are others (Arona, Coleman, Fedor) who have better top games.

Submissions != ground game. Submissions are a part of the ground game, not the entire ground game. Nog is probably the best at submissions in the business, doesn't mean he's the best on the ground in the business. What he's done is quite an accomplishment. What good ground fighters has he faced though, let's look:

Win Jeremy Horn Decision (Unanimous)
Loss Dan Henderson Decision (Split)
Win Mark Coleman Submission (Triangle/Armbar)
Win Dan Henderson Submission (Armbar)
Loss Fedor Emelianenko Decision (Unanimous)
Win Ricco Rodriguez Decision (Unanimous)
NC Fedor Emelianenko No Contest - Accidental Cut
Loss Fedor Emelianenko Decision (Unanimous)
Win Pawel Nastula (Strikes)

Maybe I should throw Herring in there, but I think he's a step under these guys on the ground. However, let's look at this.

First, Jeremy Horn, very good submission fighter. Not immune to subs, and Nog outweighs him and definitely can outmuscle him, but couldn't finish him. Decision win over a lighter fighter.

Loses to Dan Henderson, a wrestler, not a big submission guy, by decision.

Mark Coleman, a wrestler, not a big submission guy. Subs him.

Avenges his loss and takes out Dan Henderson, a wrestler, via armbar.

Loses to Fedor.

Wins over Ricco in a decision, a good wrestler and jiu-jitsu guy, in a match many think Ricco was robbed in.

NC then another loss against Fedor.

A win over a good judo guy in the guy's very first MMA fight.

Do these wins over other ground fighters make him the definitive "best ground guy" in the business? Maybe, it's a tough call, I'd give it to Fedor though since he's bested Nog on the ground.. Nog has only lost by decision though, so his obvious weakness is that if he can't sub the fighter - then he may not have controlled the fight enough to win a decision.

Nog has the best submissions in the game. However, is ground game could be better. Think about it, thrice against Fedor Nog has laid on his back and got pounded on. Remember when Coleman fought Fedor? Coleman put Fedor on his back and controlled him until he got subbed. Imagine if Coleman had Nog's sub defense. Now if Nog is as good as Coleman on top, why not use a more Coleman like approach and just defend against that crazy armbar?

That's because Ricco is fat right now. =( When Ricco is in prime condition, we'll see where he's at again. I think there was a time where Ricco may have been better than Nog on the ground, but not with his current weight problems and we don't know if he's gotten better or worse in terms of skill, we just know he's worse because of his physical condition. I think if Ricco had continued training hard, as Nog has, and stayed in shape, he'd be better than Nog on the ground. That didn't happen though, so Nog wins over Ricco due to hardwork.

Heh, yeah, but based on what? They also rank Wanderlei higher than Fedor.

I'm aware, I take BJJ, and I've done wrestling. Nog has good BJJ takedowns, but they don't always work. If he incorporated more takedowns into his style, he'd be more effective.

I didn't say he wasn't the best on the ground (although, I do think Fedor is the better ground fighter, as they've proven in their clashes). I said he wasn't 100% better on the ground than everyone. Different fighters have different strengths and weaknesses in different places. Lemme compare Nog and Fedor in a few ways on the ground game (including getting there):

-------------Fedor---------Nog----------
Takedowns: Very good ---- Good
Top Control: -Great ------- Very Good
Guard Game: - Good ------ Great
Submissions: Very good ---- Great
Ground strikes: Great ----- Good
Sub-defense: Great-------Great

Yeah, this isn't very accurate, but it's to demonstrate a point. Fedor, for example, I feel has better takedowns, top control and ground strikes, while I feel Nog has a superior guard game and submissions. They both have great sub defense, neither ever being subbed.

Now, does this make Nog or Fedor better on the ground? Well, I think Fedor is a little better, but let's look at another example using the same criteria.

-------------Coleman---------Nog----------
Takedowns: Great ---- Good
Top Control: -Great ------- Very Good
Guard Game: - ? ------ Great
Submissions: Okay ---- Great
Ground strikes: Great ----- Good
Sub-defense: Good-------Great

Is Nog better than Coleman on the ground? Well, he beat Coleman on the ground, so I'll say yes. However, is Coleman better on the ground in certain aspects? Yes he is. So while Nog is better overall, he's still not 100% better in all areas.

I said Sakuraba was a better wrestler, not better on the ground period. He was (his knees are hurting down, so it's debatable) the better wrestler. I think he would lose to Nog on the ground due to being outmuscled. However, no striking he might be able to pull it off.

Sak is crazy because he can block an incoming kick, and shoot in before the guy's foot gets back to the ground and take the person down. He has a fantastic turtle, and pretty good control.

I said I was talking mostly about takedowns, but slams and sprawl in that instance. Overall, Rampage's wrestling isn't better. Watch him take down Liddell. Watch him slam Arona, Wanderlei. Haven't seen his fight versus Randleman in awhile, but he does a decent job of keepin the fight standing.

What are you talking about? Arona was just sitting in Wanderlei's Guard doing nothing the entire fight. That isn't schooling anything. He was trying to throw strikes, but he was too tied up for the most part. Most of his takedowns were stuffed. When he pulls guard after having his takedowns stuffed, Wanderlei G&P's Arona and stands back up. When on bottom Wanderlei lands the better shots. Second round Arona passes guard only to have Wanderlei stand up while having Arona in his side mount. He might be in trouble towards the end, but the round ends. Have you even seen their second fight? Maybe YOU need to watch some more fights.

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mepersoner

Silva won't fight Nog on the ground. He'll fight him standing up. He'll stuff most of Nog's takedowns and stand up if he ends up on the ground, just like against Arona only with less chance of it actually hitting the ground. If Nog gets Wanderlei on the ground, he has a chance at a sub, but I don't think most of the fight will be on the ground.

And I think Silva hits just as hard as Fedor standing up.

I would not say Cro Cop is a better striker than Wanderlei. He didn't show it in their K-1/Pride fight. Cro Cop may have better kicks, but Wanderlei has the better clinch and knees. Then we can look at the Hunt fight, which they both lost via split decision. Sure, Cro Cop looks like the better striker on paper with all the K-1 experience, but I'd put them at a pretty even level.

He has better takedown defense *now*. However, Silva's ground game is better.

Woah woah. I NEVER said that. NEVER. Please point out where I said, "Nog's ground game is not that good." I would love to see those words coming from me. They didn't, they wouldn't. I said he's not the best wreslter. His takedowns aren't the best I said. I DID NOT SAY NOG IS NOT GOOD ON THE GROUND. Don't make up false arguments, it's insulting to say I said such stupid things.

I only said parts before. Point out where I said he had a bad ground game.

I never said that. Point out where I said that. You can't, I didn't.

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SeikanJudanski

Well, that´s only 7 of his 31 fights. I suggest you check out some more, it helps getting a better view of the fighter.


Ok, like I said in my previous post, if you didn´t mean his overall ground game, then ok. Although I still disagree here, I think Nog´s ground game is easily twice as good as all, except Fedor, Pride fighters.

Fedor dropped Nog with strikes, and controlled him on the ground. I think it was more the strikes which took the rest out of Nog. It is a miracle that he could even guard himself on the ground after eating those shots. Fedor is really a bad example, since he could probably knock Superman out.


Arona´s strength is indeed on top. Hardly a fight without him controlling the fight from the top, however Arona´s overall ground game is not better than Nog´s. Coleman fought Nog and got owned, whether it was standing, or in Nog´s guard. Fedor.. well, like I said, keep Fedor out of this. The guy is not normal.


Some of these fights you mentioned happened in Rings, do you want us to bring out Wanderlei´s record in other organisations? I can still see him getting destroyed by Belfort in the UFC. I don´t think Ricco was robbed in their encounter, however I will review the fight later this week again. Pavel Nastula was unbeaten in hundreds of Judo fights if you believe Bas in his commentary of the fight against Big Nog and reports about his person. However what is certain is that he is a 3 time European Champion, 2 time World Champion and Olympic Gold Medalist from Atlanta. That´s a bit more than just a "good" judo guy. I already mentioned the fight against Coleman, Coleman being such a good wrestler, had no answer to Nog´s ground game, NONE. I can upload the fight if you would like to see it again. I haven´t seen the fight between him and Horn in Rings, I take it you haven´t also since you said you only saw the ones on the top of this post. I would have to see it to make an opinion, nevertheless a win for Nog.

What makes him the best ground fighter in the business (I also believe his ground game is better than Fedor´s, it just Fedor is complete in all aspects, has a incredible recovery time ( vs. Fujita), wicked strikes, chin, resilience, and is just a better fighter overall) is the fact that he has submitted like 70% of his opponents. They include present Pride Champions and Contenders and UFC champions and veterans. Also, if you look at his opponents in Pride, they are mostly submission fighters from Shooto or Rings.

His ground game is just fine, dude this is just it, you make it sound like he is some ordinary ground fighter, this is the basis of this whole discussion.

Coleman really didn´t put Fedor on his back, Fedor was swinging and missed, this put him in an awkward position, Coleman being the good wrestler he is, utilized on this, but it was more of Coleman´s strength rather than his wrestling that threw Fedor in the corner. He actually did control the fight for a couple of minutes, put failed. He even had Fedor in a rear naked choke position, but couldn´t do anything, from that postition Fedor managed to turn it around, put Coleman in an Guillotine. Coleman with his big neck popped out of it, he start to strike him and gave him a devastating knee and Coleman managed to put him back on the ground, but got submitted with the quickness. I give Coleman respect for this fight, he did have some good moments in the first minutes. Now you have to understand, Nog is nowhere as strong as Coleman. If Nog was as strong as Coleman and had better striking abilites, he could have won the two encounters, but he isn´t. That´s just how it is.


Definitely, Ricco was an extremely good fighter, excellent wrestler, can´t argue with that.


Actually, if Nog was a better striker he would be even more effective. That´s why he trains with the cubans, and he HAS greatly improved his boxing. He is effective enough, Fedor is just too much.

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SeikanJudanski

Yes, I see your point here, and I don´t disagree with it. But looking at your little comparison here, it looks like Nog is at least as good as Fedor on the ground. I said before, if he was stronger, he would also be more effective in the categories you favored Fedor in.


100% not, better yes. Did he shut Coleman down? Definitely.

Sak is how old now? 38? That´s alot in MMA. Sak has been around Pride since day one, I think there comes a time when you can´t win all your fights. Back in the day I actually believe he could have had a chance against Nog, but not anymore.

About Rampage,

Actually you didn´t mention anything about Rampage, you simply said "is Nog´s wrestling better than Rampage´s?" I don´t think Quinton is that good of a Wrestler, the slam was pure power, the fight with Liddell was striking, and against Wanderlai...ouch. Rampage´s Wrestling is like you now say NOT better than Nog´s, there´s actually no need for comparison here.

I was speaking of their first fight, the second was different, in your intial post you said where have I ever seen him in trouble on the ground.. So I pointed out their first fight. Since you haven´t seen it, go watch it. Nobody was talking about their second fight, which you so vividly described above.

I have seen every single Pride event there is, what are you getting at? I said you need to watch the first fight, before you start talking about him not ever being in trouble on the ground.

It´s not about Silva not fighting Nog on the ground, you are assuming he won´t do it, first of all, he would have to be ontop to decide to take it back up, second, even on top, Nog´s wicked grip and full guard will be too much for Silva to dictate the fight. I also don´t really believe most of the fight will be on the ground, but it will go to the ground. You can be sure of this.

That´s ridiculous.


Actually, to be honest, I think Mirko lost that fight against Silva, due to Silva taking him down, and doing more in the first two rounds. Mirko migh have won the last round, and Silva also fatigued with Mirko showing better stamina, but it should have been a split D for Silva. Anyway that was Mirko´s 2nd Pride fight, look at him now. Do you still think Silva could pull off what he did in their first encounter?

Yes, Silva´s ground game is better than Mirko´s.


This is what you said..

I don´t know if YOUR 1st language is English, but a statement like that basically means he sucks at wrestling. Now you can split hairs and say you meant that he is literally not the greatest, but in everyday English a statement like that means he sucks. It´s like saying, "well he isn´t the smartest guy around", you would only say that about a person you think is dumb, or not intelligent.

Saying he is not that good of a wrestler is basically saying his ground game sucks. At least that´s what it sounds like.

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mepersoner

My points weren't that say, Coleman was better on the ground. Just that Nog wasn't as good at certain aspects. Nog's game is pretty counteractive to Coleman's game.

Hah, I was just talking about the second one, which I thought you were also talking about. Obviously Silva came prepared for that one.

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SeikanJudanski

Well of course he did, man the first fight went so bad for him, that people were saying he threw it, just because he didn´t want to fight his buddy Shogun in the finals. I disagree, Arona was on that Ass.. their second fight was close, but nowhere like their first one.

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