Vince McMahon Tried To Use Goldberg To Sabotage UFC Event

subgenius · 10-13-2005, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tufgirl14

Whatever, all the UFC has to do is get more people to know what it is about... and thats what its doing, and those that prefer fake wrestling are just... well, they have bad taste.

There is no accounting for taste, and I can easily turn that around on you. Many people despise the UFC because the violence is REAL.

What? What? What?

Did you think that violence in films and on TV was real? Are people that watch violent films and TV programs exhibiting "bad taste"?

So far, being informed about the UFC during the 1990s got the UFC banned in like 49 out of 50 states in the US due to excessive violence. It is barely crawling out of those ashes now.

subgenius · 10-13-2005, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tufgirl14

P.S. Subgenius, the majority isnt always right. What, are you just trying to bust on everyones opinion? Dont take that offensively please, ur cool and stuff just askin.

I call em like I see them.

Unknown · 10-13-2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

That is terribly ill-informed data. Sorry. The UFC is a threat to BOXING, but not pro-wrestling...

WWE... 256 TV shows per year... 12 PPV events per year (not counting their specials, just the actual live events), which is like 250+ events in 25 years... consistent high ratings, even during the so-called down periods (such as when WCW won for 18 weeks in a row, the WWE still did better than NFL MNF)... the WWE eclipsed all other long running TV programs of any type for sheer numbers of TV programs, but WWE RAW did that by itself... beating out Gunsmoke, which ran for twenty years... pro-wrestling has done nothing but continue to grow since 1980...

UFC... fewer than 50 TV shows EVER, only 55 PPV events EVER...

Again, which of these is the juggernaut?

You didn't say what was ill informed. Sorry man but that was researched information. Not just a loyal fan trying to defend his favorite industry. As for the Gun smoke claim. Gun smoke still has the record because the official name of the Monday night program changed over the years witch made it a different program. Yes there were more episodes of the WWE/WWF in that timeslot then Gun smoke had but they are considered different shows. And as I said before the WWE is very big but they can’t afford bad nights or low selling PPVs. Just last year a PPV called 'Taboo Tuesday' sold lower than the WWE expected and greatly hurt their revenue. The UFC on the other hand can afford bad days like UFC 55 because in general, with the exception of TUF, the better the fighters are paid the better they are as a fighter and the bigger crowd they will attract. The UFC and Zuffa have significantly less resources tied up in their shows when compared to WWE. And that is why they are as big a threat as they are.

Oh yeah, and the UFC is much more of a threat to WWE than boxing. All those annoying organizations will keep boxing going for a long time. If one fails then the others will be their to pick up the pieces and become that much stronger and at the same time one of the smaller ones will grow to a much larger size and we will be back where we started.

subgenius · 10-13-2005, 08:55 PM

Nope, WWE RAW now has about 15 more episodes than Gunsmoke... And, the data on the WWE is EASY to figure out. They run a Monday night show 52 weeks out of every year, and they run a Thursday (now Friday) night show every week for 52 weeks. In addition, they have a show on Saturday and Sunday... 52 weeks a year. They run a PPV every month... every year... for over twenty years now. You think they cannot afford a flop of a PPV here and there? Are you saying that out of 240 shows they never made a bad PPV?

Unknown · 10-13-2005, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Nope, WWE RAW now has about 15 more episodes than Gunsmoke... And, the data on the WWE is EASY to figure out. They run a Monday night show 52 weeks out of every year, and they run a Thursday (now Friday) night show every week for 52 weeks. In addition, they have a show on Saturday and Sunday... 52 weeks a year. They run a PPV every month... every year... for over twenty years now. You think they cannot afford a flop of a PPV here and there? Are you saying that out of 240 shows they never made a bad PPV?

Did I not just say that they did make a bad PPV and it hurt them? When it comes to it Gunsmoke still officaly holds the record eventhougt the WWE has had more shows. The thing is is that the stuff we see is only half the stuff. Wrestlers train and practice their matches several times a week and the WWE also has alooott of exwrestlers as 'WWE agents' who still make a good deal of money do little small things here and there. Bottem line the WWE operation cost is very high.

subgenius · 10-13-2005, 09:07 PM

Gunsmoke already officially lost the record. It happened about fifteen weeks ago. WWE RAW, not some other show--RAW. And, as I said, out of 240 PPVs, the WWE certainly CAN afford to have a few of them flop. As you said, some have flopped, and the WWE is still here, still running strong without any signs of halting. Also, I think you do not realize just how big a money maker the WWE really is... it dwarfs the UFC and PRIDE FC. The UFC cannot pay the type of money to its fighters that the WWE can... Ask Ken Shamrock, Tank Abbot, Dan Severin, and others... they have all been paid by the WWE at one time or another. Even Tito Ortiz knows where the cash is, and he is getting some of it from TNA (which is a smaller wrestling promotion then the WWE).

You may be thinking, why didn't those MMA stars stay in the WWE, if they can make so much more money. The truth is that those fighters were bland and boring as pro-wrestlers. They were what would be called "unmarketable" in the pro-wrestling world. The hard point is that they have no marketable personalities... Ken Shamrock came the closest.

Grave · 10-13-2005, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Cross over due to realism? Not really a factor. The realism or lack of it in pro-wrestling is NOT why people watch it...

Yeah wheither wrestling is real or not is not the point of it.

subgenius · 10-13-2005, 09:45 PM

I personally am hoping that the UFC will push for more time on TV. Just imagine... A UFC UFN every week for 52 weeks. A two hour show every week. Or, better yet, two of these two hour programs every week... with maybe a recap show on the weekends. Now, imagine a UFC PPV event every month, rather than every few months or just a few times a year.

Well... the UFC has increased its number of PPVs. That is good. But, it would be better for the sport to get more air time. If PRIDE FC is bigger and has more money available, then why is it that they cannot afford a decent TV program? I am sorry, but the PRIDE FC shows that I see on FSN or Comcast are very low grade and poorly made... only the actual fights save it from my calling it horrible or heinous. In that regard, the UFC is years ahead of PRIDE.

The problem... and there is a serious problem here... is that the UFC does not have the talent or drawing power to warrant this level of TV time. This is an essential difference between the WWE and the UFC or all MMA. The WWE is an organization that gathers around itself the best in pro-wrestling. They have more pro-wrestlers than they can give air time to... The UFC cannot put their best talent on TV week in and week out, and neither can PRIDE FC.

Pr-wrestling had similar problems in the late 1970s and early 1980s when PPVs hit the market. Before that time, the TV shows featured a top talent versus a get beat. The Saturday morning shows were set up like that, and I recall watching them as a kid with my grandfather there explaining to me all about how they do what they do in the ring. The reason for the best versus the worst scenario on TV for pro-wrestling was that they wanted to get people to go to the arenas and buy tickets...

Then, in the late 1980s, and early 1990s, the WWF (now the WWE) and NWA (soon to become the WCW) began to fully compete with each other as very LARGE organizations. This made each organization have to start showing the best wrestlers against the best wrestlers on TV. It was slow at first. But once they knew people would buy the PPV or go to the arenas, even though they got great pro-wrestling on TV, then they went full tilt.

The WWF marketed their Saturday Night Main Event TV show in the late 1980s. Back then, the WWF was still running their Tuesday Night Titans show. This is now being reflected in the success of the UFC's own Ultimate Fight Night program, which is now shaping up to be their flagship on TV. The two shows have very similar parallels in development... Just like with how the TUF show refelcts the WWE's Tough Enough show. It is as though the UFC is following the path that the WWE set forth...

Goeth27 · 10-13-2005, 10:31 PM

Pro wrestling sucks. Except when there is girls wrestling. In a pit...... with mud....... and bikini's....

Unknown · 10-13-2005, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

The WWF marketed their Saturday Night Main Event TV show in the late 1980s. Back then, the WWF was still running their Tuesday Night Titans show. This is now being reflected in the success of the UFC's own Ultimate Fight Night program, which is now shaping up to be their flagship on TV. The two shows have very similar parallels in development... Just like with how the TUF show refelcts the WWE's Tough Enough show. It is as though the UFC is following the path that the WWE set forth...

First thing I agree with you about. Tough Enough was the WWE's way of capatlizing on the reality show craze. And then Boxing and later the UFC did the same just with more real fights. Most new things had their breakout shows. Something comes out that the people like and a good businessman will capatilze on that and give the people more.

subgenius · 10-14-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown

First thing I agree with you about. Tough Enough was the WWE's way of capatlizing on the reality show craze. And then Boxing and later the UFC did the same just with more real fights. Most new things had their breakout shows. Something comes out that the people like and a good businessman will capatilze on that and give the people more.

Right. That is why I am still hoping that the UFC big guns are smart enough to start programming for a weekly two-hour event EVERY week. I am even willing to watch MMA fighters that nobody knows in preliminary bouts on TV... just so long as it is not THE BEST fighter versus THE WORST fighter in every match up. I like watching TUF1 and TUF2. Why not take the next step, and start putting that level of MMA fighter on a regular primetime two-hour showcase event every week? Not a weekly reality show, but a real fight card every week. I am sure that Spike TV could open up a two-hour Tuesday or Thursday primetime slot for the UFC...

We have ALL been bitching about how the UFC has been thinning out in its championship level MMA fighters. I mean, we lament that Arlovski has no one to fight that is truly worthy (although, that can be debated). I think that the best fighters in PRIDE FC would be drooling to be seen on NATIONAL TV in the US on a weekly basis--even if they are not scheduled to fight every night. IMO, the best paid PRIDE FC fighter would be GREATLY tempted to move to the UFC for the chance to become SUPERSTARS on a regular UFC TV weekly primetime show. The audience wants to see these guys interviewed all the time. They are starved for it in many ways... The level of exposure would dwarf what is happening in PRIDE FC, which is mostly limited to Japan.

This is where I think that the WWE comes back into this issue. From what I am aware of, no other fighting promotions have a show like WWE RAW or Smackdown. Let's not discuss the in-ring action, and instead just look at ONLY the packaging and presentation.

The shows could open with interviews from fighters from recent UFC PPV events. They could, like the WWE, show the audiences still photos or limited footage from the PPV during the interviews. That will get the fans to want the PPV events more and more. They then give us MMA fights between interviews. They could do those "Where Are They Now" segments to show us where the older fighters are now that they stopped fighting... Hell, they could even do a Piper's Pit sort of interview special (sans the crazy antics) where fighters interview fighters. So much could be done to bring in MORE fans...

K-1 and Boxing have shows on TV, but mostly they are hidden on ESPN2 at really odd hours of the day or night. I mean, look at ESPN and ESPN2... once football season began, they seemingly dumped all the boxing programs or moved them to like 4:00 AM. Comcast and FSN seem to only show PRIDE FC once every three or four weeks (if we are lucky). Comcast at least still has a Sunday Night Fights program (oddly enough, it is shown on Friday). ECSN has all the old Boxing fights, such as Tyson versus Douglas 1990 on tonight at 8:00 PM. You have to go to Showtime or HBO pay TV to get the real current Boxing matches... most of which are replays of matches from a PPV where everyone already knows the outcome.

cuzeeeboy · 10-14-2005, 09:37 PM

actually wwe killed ufc on rating by like 5 to 1

[Danny] · 10-15-2005, 11:55 PM

Everyone knew that would happen. UFC isn't even close to the level that WWE is drawing. But, the quality for teh UFC of course surpasses WWE by ten fold in my opinion.

subgenius · 10-16-2005, 01:24 PM

The quality of in-ring action is definately superior for the UFC, and that is because we are fans of MMA. The problem is that the WWE has been running so many shows for so long that they have a variable formula that works so very well with their fans. I love the way that the WWE packages their events.

The WWE has easily twice as many cameras and crew on site for any individual event, as opposed to the UFC or PRIDE FC events. I say that the last UFC event had the WORST camera work. The monkeys out in the cotrol truck were asleep at the switches. The camera people spent a lot of time behind the referee with the referee between the camera and the action. I am stunned that Frank Shamrock would consider that great as far as production values are concerned...

[Danny] · 10-16-2005, 06:56 PM

I don't know about the WWE having superior programming/cameras than Pride. I think they actually drawin more money than WWE has been if you convert the yen to dollars.

subgenius · 10-16-2005, 09:32 PM

We have debated this before in some other threads. The WWE has like 100 or a 1000 times the monetary power over the UFC and PRIDE FC. Some WWE PPVs hit numbers as high as 600,000 to over a million subscriptions. The highest that PRIDE FC and the UFC have seen is like in the 300,000 to 400,000 range.

The WWE TV programs make big money for the WWE. And, they fill stadiums in some PPVs as high as 80,000 to 100,000 people. The UFC and PRIDE FC, IIRC, have never hit those numbers. And, the WWE tours all over the world--although, mostly in the Western hemisphere, Europe, and Australia... When the WWE goes to Japan, it does HUGE numbers. Japan, like Mexico, is a huge center for pro-wrestling.

[Danny] · 10-17-2005, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

We have debated this before in some other threads. The WWE has like 100 or a 1000 times the monetary power over the UFC and PRIDE FC. Some WWE PPVs hit numbers as high as 600,000 to over a million subscriptions. The highest that PRIDE FC and the UFC have seen is like in the 300,000 to 400,000 range.

Those 300,000 buys are in the US where in Japan, Pride has had numbers above 100,000 I do believe. And saying WWE is the center of pro-wrestling is a laugh considering New Japan and NOAH has destroyed it in Japan for the last 3 years.

WWE is huge here, Canada, and Europe. Japan has a totally different style and choice there in pro-wrestling and Pride surpasses WWE and New Japan over there. The only things bigger are K-1 and somtimes NOAH.

subgenius · 10-17-2005, 01:34 AM

Sure, in Japan. There are 150 million people in Japan. There are 500+ million people in North America. There is like another 500 million in Europe. Australia has some more... Those are large markets... That is why the UFC has a larger potential than PRIDE FC, even if that isn't fully realized as yet. The WWE can make billions and billions even without selling in Japan. The UFC wants to tap THAT market. I see it as being much more difficult for PRIDE FC to break into America then it is to work the other way around. When was the las PRIDE FC event held in the US?

Unknown · 10-17-2005, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Sure, in Japan. There are 150 million people in Japan. There are 500+ million people in North America. There is like another 500 million in Europe. Australia has some more... Those are large markets... That is why the UFC has a larger potential than PRIDE FC, even if that isn't fully realized as yet. The WWE can make billions and billions even without selling in Japan. The UFC wants to tap THAT market. I see it as being much more difficult for PRIDE FC to break into America then it is to work the other way around. When was the las PRIDE FC event held in the US?

Right now the UFC is trying to solidify itself as the organization for MMA in America. And I think that they are succeeding. Most people who are new to the sport now think of it as Ultimate Fighting not MMA. If Pride were to show up here it would not do as well as the UFC. Granted I am starting to watch Pride, and enjoying it, but they just wouldn’t have the fan base. They would suffer the same things that holds the UFC back (western views of fighting) and would loose the biggest thing that has separated them from the UFC: The Japanese views of fighting. Most of the new fans don’t know enough to see a difference in the skill levels of the fighters and they will end up sticking with the promotion that they are most familiar with.

If the UFC continues to dominate US television as the only MMA provider on live TV Pride will not have a chance to compete with them over here. And with America being the #1 consumer nation in the world the UFC will eventually have a bigger budget. I would not be surprised if in 5 years there was an MMA (or Ultimate Fighting) event on once a week.

subgenius · 10-17-2005, 03:42 AM

That is true... For now, I have to buy PRIDE FC, KOTC, and whatever else they slip in there on PPV or watch the PRIDE FC TV show on FSN (Comcast Sports for me). I get the TUF2 show for free, and there are the occassional UFC UFN shows on Spike TV. So, it ain't all bad. I still like watching the UFC PPVs. Eventually I want to go see the UFC live in Vegas or where ever they might have it in the US.