Dana White: B.J. Penn > Kimbo - Page 2 - Fight Forum - MMA - UFC - Boxing - K1

asronn · 06-02-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenkins83

I guess it all depends on who can do what faster. Would Penn lock on a submission before Kimbo is able to get back to his feet, or would Kimbo get to his feet before Penn can lock a submission. I don't know about anyone else, but when I see Kimbo reversing positions and getting up to his feet with a 250 lbs guy laying on top of him and then see people saying a 155 lbs Penn would be able to hold Kimbo on the ground long enough to lock in a submission, to me it seems that maybe some people have too much love for Penn and too much hate for Kimbo that it's messing with the rational part of their reasoning.

that tells me you dont understand BJJ at all. With BJ'a amount of skill it would be over very quickly and it would be very difficult for Kimbo to get up if BJ didnt want him to

Jenkins83 · 06-02-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashsti

If Kimbo had anything that amounted to a ground game i would be hesitant to say Penn wins. However Penn is 1000X better on the mat than Kimbo can ever hope to be. Its not Kimbo hate, its just a fact that Kimbo is a fish out of water on the ground while BJ Penn is a fish in water. Penn is that good when the fight goes to the ground, especially against a person with no real BJJ skills.

Kimbo doesn't need a ground game if he's able to get back to his feet everytime Penn takes him down (And this is all assuming Penn can even take him down in the first place). Again, Kimbo was able to reverse positions and get back to his feet with a 250 lbs Thompson on top of him, what makes you think he couldn't do the same thing with a 155 lbs Penn?

Crashsti · 06-02-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenkins83

Kimbo doesn't need a ground game if he's able to get back to his feet everytime Penn takes him down. Again, Kimbo was able to reverse positions and get back to his feet with a 250 lbs Thompson on top of him, what makes you think he couldn't do the same thing with a 155 lbs Penn?

Part of BJJ is to be able to keep an opponent off balance and unable to regain footing. Its called positioning and when a guy with the skills of BJ Penn is working over a 250 guy with no ground skills it becomes surprisingly easy to keep them on their back. Kimbo would be relying on his brute strength to get back to standing and in that time would leave himself open to all sorts of submissions.

Jenkins83 · 06-02-2008, 09:56 AM

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think Kimbo's overwhelming strength advantage would negate Penn's better skill set and you think the opposite. Hopefully the fight will happen one day so we could see who's right.

Crashsti · 06-02-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenkins83

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think Kimbo's overwhelming strength advantage would negate Penn's better skill set and you think the opposite. Hopefully the fight will happen one day so we could see who's right.

Odds are this fight will never happen, but i stand by my opinions. All i can say is look up the old PrideFC fight between Minowa and Kimo. Very similar to what we could see if Kimbo fought Penn.

MTKrav911 · 06-02-2008, 10:39 AM

Look at how poorly Kimbo performed off his back vs a fighter who's best days were way past him, yet still managed to lay at least a basic GNP on Kimbo.

Now put Penn in top position with Kimbo?

Kimbo is getting something broken becasue he doesent seem the type that would tapout. It'd hurt his "Street Cred". Or whatever nonesense those hooligans call it.

LEFTHIGHKICK · 06-02-2008, 11:24 AM

Common guys, Kimbo Slices Punching power would be wayy too much for Penn, and I'd also love to see a 155lbs guy take down a 230lbs guy.
Penn would have to do very well at dodging strikes from Kimbo, as Kimbo's power would be ridiculous on Penn.

Too much BJ Penn love here, I think Kimbo would TKO or KO him.

Crashsti · 06-02-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LEFTHIGHKICK

Common guys, Kimbo Slices Punching power would be wayy too much for Penn, and I'd also love to see a 155lbs guy take down a 230lbs guy.
Penn would have to do very well at dodging strikes from Kimbo, as Kimbo's power would be ridiculous on Penn.

Kimbo may be powerful, but in comparison to Penn he is not very agile and could even be considered slow. BJ would be able to pick his shots and take advantage of Kimbo's own momentum. using Kimbo's mass and the force of gravity against him. It does'nt have to be a traditional double leg, or a single. Get Kimbo's feet crosses, get him off balance and down he goes. BJ Penn is a real technician and would figure out a way. Even if he were to get caught on the bottom its likely Kimbo would get caught in an arm bar.

twigz · 06-02-2008, 11:38 AM

IMO Kimbo would would never even touch BJ. BJ would be way to fast.

Yeah Kimbo has power but what good is power is can't touch someone. Kimbo didn't look like he had good TD def either and BJ has fought big guys before too.

I'd go BJ by sub in the 1st.

fullonshred · 06-02-2008, 12:13 PM

Yeah, ummmm..... how much trouble did Fedor at 235lbs. have vs Hong Man Choi at 7ft. 2in. tall and weighing 350lbs.? Not tooooo muuuuuch. Penn would find a way to beat Kimbo too. He would be light years ahead of him in cardio, skill, training,experience and knowledge. Kimbo wouldn't land the first solid shot on BJ Penn.

Crashsti · 06-02-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullonshred

Yeah, ummmm..... how much trouble did Fedor at 235lbs. have vs Hong Man Choi at 7ft. 2in. tall and weighing 350lbs.? Not tooooo muuuuuch. Penn would find a way to beat Kimbo too. He would be light years ahead of him in cardio, skill, training,experience and knowledge.

Excellent example!!!

MTKrav911 · 06-02-2008, 02:11 PM

Again, Kimbo is the example in my experience I like to use about a big buffed mean looking guy. Sure they're strong. Sure they can pack a punch. Sure, they're "Tough".

But they're unskilled. I'm much more worried, and have had much more trouble when working patrol so many years ago? I had more trouble with the freakin 5'8-5'11 150-195 lb types who you really have to work to get down into a position to throw into custody.

Those big dudes? They were easy because all their streghth is up top. You do like Crashti said and simply throw them off balance even a little? They drop easily. REAL easily in fact.

It's them average/shorter little SOB's that give you the problems because they're squirrly and they can go forever before getting cuffed.

The worst experience I had was with a guy 5'7 (I'm 6'0 and had 30 plus lbs on him). This guy couldnt have weighed more than 165. I tackle him, put my knee on the back of his neck, get one cuff on him, and he starts rolling with me swinging the loose cuff which I lost control of, so now I have an open edged cuff swinging at me. Even some knees to his nuts while rolling around didnt slow him down (he was a tweaker). So I head butted him about 4 times and well then I got him in.

The biggest dude? Ex Con from Soledad State, 6'5, 285 lbs. Man, All I did was C-Collar his wrist (control hold AIkido move they teach us), and he freakin not only went down, he cried when I tweaked his wrist. I had him in cuffs in under 10 seconds.

But that's just my humble experience.

Jenkins83 · 06-02-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullonshred

Yeah, ummmm..... how much trouble did Fedor at 235lbs. have vs Hong Man Choi at 7ft. 2in. tall and weighing 350lbs.? Not tooooo muuuuuch. Penn would find a way to beat Kimbo too. He would be light years ahead of him in cardio, skill, training,experience and knowledge. Kimbo wouldn't land the first solid shot on BJ Penn.

Hong Man Choi may be an example of someone who is too big for MMA. He's a good kickboxer, but he has no MMA skills and with that body type he can't really develop any - he's too tall and too slow. Kimbo is faster and his weight comes from pure muscle weight, not because he's freakishly tall. I'm telling you, Kimbo is way too powerful for Penn, if they were to fight Penn would get manhandled plain and simple. The only way I could see Penn possibly winning is if he kept his distance for the majority of the fight and kept Kimbo chasing him - only coming in to throw some quick jabs every now and then thus winning a boring decision.

666 · 06-02-2008, 02:40 PM

Has anyone seen Genki Sudo Vs Butterbean? Thats something along the lines of what I would predict to happen in this fight.

Ztous · 06-02-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenkins83

Hong Man Choi may be an example of someone who is too big for MMA. He's a good kickboxer, but he has no MMA skills and with that body type he can't really develop any - he's too tall and too slow. Kimbo is faster and his weight comes from pure muscle weight, not because he's freakishly tall. I'm telling you, Kimbo is way too powerful for Penn, if they were to fight Penn would get manhandled plain and simple. The only way I could see Penn possibly winning is if he kept his distance for the majority of the fight and kept Kimbo chasing him - only coming in to throw some quick jabs every now and then thus winning a boring decision.

It isn't boxing it's MMA. Believe it or not smaller fighters are very strong too. Penn would take it to the ground and if Kimbo tried to do the dumbest thing he could which is just try and stand up then he would be tapped quick.

Kimbo is a below average HW while Penn is a extremely accomplished BJJ black belt.

MTKrav911 · 06-02-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztous

It isn't boxing it's MMA. Believe it or not smaller fighters are very strong too. Penn would take it to the ground and if Kimbo tried to do the dumbest thing he could which is just try and stand up then he would be tapped quick.

Kimbo is a below average HW while Penn is a extremely accomplished BJJ black belt.

Not just an accomplished BJJ black belt, but an accomplished all around 2 time MMA champion.

There's trained, and untrained.

I will not go as far as to say Kimbo is totally untrained. But I WILL argue, that his Youtube days? He was untrained because he was picking up UPS drivers, Wash-Boys, Car Wash Attendants, etc. to beat up.

But vs the caliber of training a BJ Penn has? He is exponentially ahead even a very large minimally trained Kimbo Slice at this point.

It would not even be close IMO>

Jenkins83 · 06-02-2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztous

It isn't boxing it's MMA. Believe it or not smaller fighters are very strong too. Penn would take it to the ground

That's another thing. Everyone seems to be just assuming Penn would be able to get Kimbo to the ground. I wouldn't exactly call that a given. But let's give BJ the most ideal scenario - he is able to take Kimbo down and he is able to hold him down long enough to work a submission. Even in that ideal scenario for Penn, I think Kimbo would be strong enough to power his way out of a lot of his submission attempts. I mean good luck getting an armbar on Kimbo's arms which are probably about triple the size of Penn's legs. (exaggerating, but you get the point).

MTKrav911 · 06-02-2008, 08:12 PM

Perhaps Jenkins.

But expert BJJ guys are outstanding at knowing where your power and weight are going, and going the other way with it. Usually into something getting broken.

I'd put Kimbo with his current Skill Level into the skill level of most "tough guys" in UFC 1.

When Royce Gracie messed up alot of "Tough Guys", even though Royce is only 165 lbs at the time.

It's training and knowledge.

You can't beat that. BJJ/MMA isnt some whacko silly TMA system with silly flips and "DIM MAK". It's a system where the greatest of their practitioners know how to just break things regardless of how big you are compared to them, and regarless of how many dishwashers you beat up in a back alleyway.

Kurtis636 · 06-02-2008, 08:17 PM

BJJ is designed specifically so that the smaller man can defeat the larger man. It's all about leverage, technique, and positioning. If Kimbo had been facing someone with even an average ground game that fight would have been over in the first round. You put him against BJ Penn (who would probably come into that fight at 170 or so) and he's going to be in huge trouble. Kimbo was able to buck off Thompson because Thompson had poor control. Even top flight, national champion caliber wrestlers can't get BJ Penn off of them when he gets top control or back control.

Kimbo was totally exposed on Saturday. He's got a lot of athletic potential but he was a total fish out of water when it hit the mat.

takeAnap · 06-02-2008, 09:37 PM

Nothing against Kimbo, I know he's new, but BJ would absolutely destroy him! There is no doubt in my mind that he would! I don't think anyone right out hate's Kimbo, I just think that most people don't like the fact he's being hyped up as a great fighter, when he still looks like a amatuer.