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Pitbull

Honestly, it would have to depend on the situation. The attempted slam by Rampage against Forrest felt more like a defensive manuever to me. Rampage didn't get much elevation on the slam, because Forrest had pretty good control of the situation. In this situation, I don't feel it should be scored highly. A slam is really just a flashy takedown. If I were a judge I would have to consider: -Whether or not the slam improved the position/control for the guy doing the slamming and/or -Did it cause damage to the guy being slammed THEN I would have to judge the slam in context with everything else that happened in the round. Thats just me, though.:)

well said

kev0

The argument you make about attempted submissions, and even though they don't do any damage to an opponent, they should score points. An attempted slam causes no damage to an opponent, should it score points?

Honestly, it would have to depend on the situation.

The attempted slam by Rampage against Forrest felt more like a defensive manuever to me. Rampage didn't get much elevation on the slam, because Forrest had pretty good control of the situation. In this situation, I don't feel it should be scored highly.

A slam is really just a flashy takedown. If I were a judge I would have to consider:

-Whether or not the slam improved the position/control for the guy doing the slamming

and/or

-Did it cause damage to the guy being slammed

THEN I would have to judge the slam in context with everything else that happened in the round.

Thats just me, though.:)

Pitbull

What about it?

The argument you make about attempted submissions, and even though they don't do any damage to an opponent, they should score points. An attempted slam causes no damage to an opponent, should it score points?

lol actually, i think Krav is right

it NEVER happens, the beatup looking fighter has always lost

i mean Sam Stout defeated Spencer Fisher right and BJ Penn defeated Machida right?

...right?

MTKrav911

A "Beaten" guy doesent leave the ring/cage with no cuts, etc.

This has actually happens a lot, watch a little closer

I would argue that a submission attempt is an attempt to immediately finish the fight whereas in a takedown, you're trying to improve your position to deliver more offense.

thats exactly how i see it, its an octagon control criteria (TDs)

I would also say that submission defense and takedown defense don't score as many points as an offensive maneuver. In both cases you're defending yourself from being controlled.

tell that to the judges of the Fitch/Sanchez fight lol

Tim_AKA_God

I'd actually have to say that submission attempts are most similiar to take down attempts. You get points for take down defense so submission defense would also be similiar.

I would argue that a submission attempt is an attempt to immediately finish the fight whereas in a takedown, you're trying to improve your position to deliver more offense.

I would also say that submission defense and takedown defense don't score as many points as an offensive maneuver. In both cases you're defending yourself from being controlled.

Fact is they could not finish the fight - and they left it in the hands of three people. We ALL know when it goes to points.. everyones opinions are gonna be different. The one item that is very clear is how close the fight was. Could have went either way.

Forest won... and I'd assume the next time they fight it will go about the same way.

Pitbull

I disagree with your analogy, Tim. An attempted submission is more like throwing a strike at your opponent, landing, but not knocking him out. Attempting submissions is showing aggression, and you should score points for that.

I'd actually have to say that submission attempts are most similiar to take down attempts. You get points for take down defense so submission defense would also be similiar.

Yep, last I checked the UFC rules are "Aggression, Effective Strking, and Octagon Control".

Can you say with a straight face that Forrest Griffin had all those aspects for more fof the fight than Ramapge?

Rampage stalked Forrest, not Forrest stalking Rampage (Octagon Control). When Forrest did take the middle? He got hurt.. And dropped, and semi-slammed, and cut, etc.

I was at the fight, and seem to remember alot of backing up a majority of the fight with Forrest.

That's not Octagon Control.

I think this was a great fight. And my bias towards Rampage aside, I think it is not a good thing for the sport to have a new champion win by controversial decision. He did not "beat" Rampage.

A "Beaten" guy doesent leave the ring/cage with no cuts, etc.

Forest knows he didnt win. He used his "smarts" by staying away from Rampage, and still took alot of damage. So if that's the new legacy of Champs? Staying away and playing it safe? Great. So be it.

But it's not good for the sport.

If the UFC knows whats good for it, it HAD BETTER schedule an immediate rematch once both fighters are cleared medically.

or else.

But I like Forrest. I congratulate him, and hope he gets to PROVE all of us right or wrong. I wish Rampage a quick recovery if indeed his knee is blown from that kick/kicks. I also agree with the analysis that far too many good MMA fighters neglect to check the kicks.

But that's the fault of poor Muay Thai training, and why i firmly believe that many claim to train Muay Thai, but NOT REAL Muay Thai. It's basically American Kickboxing where they dont check kicks.

We need to recruit more straight from Bangkok THai trainers here, or more fighters will suffer un-necessarily.

It also shows aggression and control of your opponent.

kev0

So what about an attempted slam then?

What about it?

Pitbull

I disagree with your ananlogy, Tim. An attempted submission is more like throwing a strike at your opponent, landing, but not knocking him out. Attempting submissions is showing aggression, and you should score points for that.

So what about an attempted slam then?

Tim_AKA_God

Todd you're analogy is all wrong. If points were awarded for attempted subs well then you would have to award points for missed punches, because they were attempted strikes and you know how ridiculous that sounds.

I disagree with your analogy, Tim.

An attempted submission is more like throwing a strike at your opponent, landing, but not knocking him out.

Attempting submissions is showing aggression, and you should score points for that.

Todd you're analogy is all wrong. If points were awarded for attempted subs well then you would have to award points for missed punches, because they were attempted strikes and you know how ridiculous that sounds.

I still don't see how you shouldn't get points for an attempted sub. It's like saying punching is an attempted knock out so you don't get any points. Maybe if the sub is defended and shot down quickly it shouldn't count. Just my take on it.

I also scored it 48-46 Jackson...I can see how it could be scored a 47-47 draw..I can also see how you could score Forrest as winning the fight. I can't, however, see how not a single judge had Rampage winning more than two rounds. Insanity. Either way I'm very happy for Forrest, and can't wait for the inevitable rematch. I also hope they go for the shotgun rematch as opposed to having Rampage fight once before getting his rematch.

You don't get points for "attempted" submissions just like you don't get points for attempted take downs. How can you say Forrest landed more punches, he struggled to land a clean punch the whole match while Jackson continued to land solid and clean punches through out the match.

T-Bone

I will have a full breakdown of my thoughts on UFC 86 later today after I get some sleep and take some time to do a full writeup. But before I hit the sack, I just wanted to ask if I was the only one out there who scored today’s main event 49-46 in favor of Quinton Jackson? I thought it was an amazing fight and that Forrest Griffin fought the best fight of his career. A lot of the rounds were extremely close, but I felt that Jackson stole rounds three and four because he landed more power shots. The kicks landed by Griffin took their toll and scored points, but at the end of the day, I think a power shot to the face is worth more. Forrest’s head jilted back on several occasions and Jackson not only cut him, but opened up the cut further. I scored the first round 10-9 Jackson (I was about to give it to Forrest until the knockdown); the second round 10-9 Griffin (I need to re-watch the round though because I almost felt like it might have been a 10-8 round in favor of Griffin); round 3 I had 10-9 in favor of Jackson (it was a tough call though); round 4 was again 10-9 Jackson; and the final round I had 10-9 Jackson. I will re-watch the fight tomorrow. Maybe I am completely wrong. There’s a reason why I’m a writer/fan and not a judge. I just wanted to see if there is anyone else out there who scored the fight the same way I did.

I think your a little bias.
You never mentioned Forrests Triangle.
Yeh Forrest didn't land any heavy punches, but he landed more punches.

The decision was correct.

My view of the fight was

Round 1 Jackson 10/9
Round 2 Forrest 10/8
Round 3 Jackson 10/9
Round 4 Jackson 10/9
Round 5 Jackson 10/9

that has Jackson winning 48 to Forrests 46 or round 4 could possibly have gone the other way which would be a 47 each draw.

Whichever i really can't see how Forrest won this fight ?

I like both guys so im not biased in anyway, im just confused how this fight got scored in forrests favour.