Sam Caplan's initial take on Rampage v. Forrest (spoilers)

T-Bone · 07-06-2008, 01:50 PM

I guess I should put "(spoilers)", right? I don't wanna piss anyone off...but the fight is long over...what's the protocol for that?

Five Ounces of Pain | Was I the only one who thought Rampage won?

Quote:

I will have a full breakdown of my thoughts on UFC 86 later today after I get some sleep and take some time to do a full writeup.

But before I hit the sack, I just wanted to ask if I was the only one out there who scored today’s main event 49-46 in favor of Quinton Jackson?

I thought it was an amazing fight and that Forrest Griffin fought the best fight of his career. A lot of the rounds were extremely close, but I felt that Jackson stole rounds three and four because he landed more power shots.

The kicks landed by Griffin took their toll and scored points, but at the end of the day, I think a power shot to the face is worth more. Forrest’s head jilted back on several occasions and Jackson not only cut him, but opened up the cut further.

I scored the first round 10-9 Jackson (I was about to give it to Forrest until the knockdown); the second round 10-9 Griffin (I need to re-watch the round though because I almost felt like it might have been a 10-8 round in favor of Griffin); round 3 I had 10-9 in favor of Jackson (it was a tough call though); round 4 was again 10-9 Jackson; and the final round I had 10-9 Jackson.

I will re-watch the fight tomorrow. Maybe I am completely wrong. There’s a reason why I’m a writer/fan and not a judge. I just wanted to see if there is anyone else out there who scored the fight the same way I did.

We'll see what he has to say today.

T-Bone · 07-06-2008, 02:00 PM

UPDATED...today's breakdown

Five Ounces of Pain | UFC 86: Fight Critic Review

Quote:

Forrest Griffin wins unanimous decision over Quinton “Rampage” Jackson

There are a couple of points I want to clarify here. To those who claim I scored the fight for Jackson because I am biased, I had to stop myself from laughing. What bias do I have for Jackson or against Forrest Griffin? I am a fan of the sport and a fan of both fighters. I’m totally fine with Griffin as the new UFC light heavyweight champion. I think he’s great for the sport and his title win is also good. It was a close fight and I don’t have a problem with anyone scoring it in favor of Griffin. He fought an excellent fight and the only round that was not close was the second, which clearly went in Griffin’s favor.

The only bias I can think of is that I picked Jackson to win? But that’s a joke. To be honest, I don’t care all that much about how my picks turn out. I’ve made many high-profile picks and have been wrong before. There have been times where the outcome of a fight has gone in favor with my pick yet I am still championing the cause of the losing fighter because I felt he truly won. Over at CBSSports.com, it clearly shows my record of major MMA events as over 60%. That’s a pretty strong win percentage so I’m clearly not concerned about how Jackson losing affects my overall percentage, since it’s very respectable. Irrespective of that, I’m not a professional handicapper. If I get a high-profile pick wrong, I don’t lose my job over it. Life still goes on and pretty much goes on the exact same way if I had gotten it right.

It’s just yet another case of people not being able to counter an argument on its merits and hitting below the belt. I just find it humorous because again, what kind of bias do I have towards Quinton “Rampage” Jackson? Someone disagreed with you. Get over yourself. I realize the majority of people out there believe that Forrest won, but I’m not the only won who scored the fight in favor of Jackson. There are also a lot of people that believe neither fighter won.

If you scored it in favor of Griffin, you don’t see me screaming that you’re the one whose biased. Do you see me running around playing the race card against you? Do you see me writing about how the judges were influence by a crowd that was clearly partial towards Griffin? No, because I respect everyone’s opinions. This is a fight that could have gone either way. I can accept the fact that a lot of people believe Griffin won. Jackson left a close fight in the hands of the judges and has no one to blame but himself. I’m perfectly fine with the decision that was rendered. To those who countered my Rampage post from last night in a thoughtful, articulate manner, I am greatly appreciative of your contribution to the comments area. The site is a better place for it.

Also, several people in the days leading up to my fight analysis questioned my comment in which I said Griffin has a “world class chin.” Sorry, getting caught vs. Keith Jardine does not mean you have a glass jaw. Griffin has been in many brawls and has eaten a lot of punches that would have floored the average fighter. He yet again ate quite a few power punches and with the exception of a first round knockdown, he maintained his composure throughout the entire duration of the fight.

That said, I do believe there should be an immediate rematch. I don’t think Jackson was screwed, but the fight was close and the old champion performed well enough that he deserves another shot. As his trainer Juanito Ibarra said after the fight, Forrest did not take the fight away from Jackson.

Just looking at the economic impact of a possible rematch, and I think it’s a shoe-in we’ll see the two fight sooner rather than later. They could hold the rematch off until December, or try to bring them back in October in hopes of having the winner of Jackson vs. Griffin II possibly fight Chuck Liddell in December. That could be pushing it though.

Regardless, I believe that Griffin is a deserving champion and last night’s win makes him the number one light heavyweight in the world. Sometimes I caught some grief from people because of how high I ranked Griffin in my top ten light heavyweight rankings. Where are those people now?

As I stated before, last night’s main event was one of the best I’ve ever seen close out a big show. I liked Stevenson vs. Tibau because it told a story. Well, this fight had a lot of story to it. When Griffin came out and proved right away he was much more a fleet of foot, he instantly showed everyone he felt he had a gameplan to defeat Rampage. As the first round continued, it was obvious in thinking back about all of Jackson’s pre-fight comments that he clearly underestimated Griffin. As time went on, the crowd’s enthusiasm only added to the drama. And as the fight went on, I also couldn’t help but wonder whether we were on the verge of seeing the first-ever “organic” (meaning, a fighter that won TUF that hadn’t previously fought in the UFC) winner of “The Ultimate Fighter” claim a world title? When the fight ended, I honestly had no idea how the scoring was going to go.

In regards to Jackson belittling Griffin in interviews leading up to the fight, I am pretty sure that Jackson has respected Griffin all along and that a lot of what he said leading up to the fight was merely a case of him putting his game face on a little early. There was also some marketing taking place on the part of Rampage. This was proven to me as being fact after Jackson handled himself in such a classy manner following a close loss. The two paid each other a lot of respect during the post-fight interviews with Rogan inside the cage, and it was something I greatly appreciated. Jackson didn’t use the mic time to put himself over and stump for a rematch by questioning the judges. Instead, he gave Griffin his full endorsement as champion. Way to go.

And was it just me, or did Griffin steal the gameplan that Keith Jardine used to fight Chuck Liddell? It was almost verbatim. It also looked like for much of the fight (until the end, at least) that Jackson had gone to the Liddell school of checking kicks. I don’t understand why some fighters just neglect to check kicks. You don’t feel it right away in a lot of cases, but the pain creeps up on you. The pain Jackson feels now in that leg is probably twice as bad now as it was yesterday. If you don’t have good reflexes, checking kicks isn’t the easiest thing in the world to do. But you at least have to make an effort. I do think it was smart for Rampage not to switch stances, because then Griffin would have chopped the **** out of the other leg and instead of having one leg he could walk on, he’d have none.

Overall, any time you have a main event that is this high-profile and delivers as far as overall quality, it’s a great thing for the sport, regardless of who wins. It was the kind of fight that can convert non-fans into fans. It was the kind of main event that can help the sport grow and one that every MMA fan can be proud of.

TapOrNap · 07-06-2008, 02:02 PM

This is exactly how I scored the fight.

Tim_AKA_God · 07-06-2008, 02:24 PM

I also scored the fight in exactly this way.

Chewman · 07-06-2008, 02:26 PM

T-bone.. all you do is go around copy and pasting this stuff on FF ? wanna be a admin much ! lol

T-Bone · 07-06-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chewman

T-bone.. all you do is go around copy and pasting this stuff on FF ? wanna be a admin much ! lol

someone's gotta keep you guys informed.

welcome to the forum - feel free to contribute once in a while.

Scarecrow · 07-06-2008, 03:15 PM

Sounds like Caplan got some hate mail.

wilshaw · 07-06-2008, 05:29 PM

My view of the fight was

Round 1 Jackson 10/9
Round 2 Forrest 10/8
Round 3 Jackson 10/9
Round 4 Jackson 10/9
Round 5 Jackson 10/9

that has Jackson winning 48 to Forrests 46 or round 4 could possibly have gone the other way which would be a 47 each draw.

Whichever i really can't see how Forrest won this fight ?

I like both guys so im not biased in anyway, im just confused how this fight got scored in forrests favour.

DefendingChamp · 07-06-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Bone

I will have a full breakdown of my thoughts on UFC 86 later today after I get some sleep and take some time to do a full writeup.

But before I hit the sack, I just wanted to ask if I was the only one out there who scored today’s main event 49-46 in favor of Quinton Jackson?

I thought it was an amazing fight and that Forrest Griffin fought the best fight of his career. A lot of the rounds were extremely close, but I felt that Jackson stole rounds three and four because he landed more power shots.

The kicks landed by Griffin took their toll and scored points, but at the end of the day, I think a power shot to the face is worth more. Forrest’s head jilted back on several occasions and Jackson not only cut him, but opened up the cut further.

I scored the first round 10-9 Jackson (I was about to give it to Forrest until the knockdown); the second round 10-9 Griffin (I need to re-watch the round though because I almost felt like it might have been a 10-8 round in favor of Griffin); round 3 I had 10-9 in favor of Jackson (it was a tough call though); round 4 was again 10-9 Jackson; and the final round I had 10-9 Jackson.

I will re-watch the fight tomorrow. Maybe I am completely wrong. There’s a reason why I’m a writer/fan and not a judge. I just wanted to see if there is anyone else out there who scored the fight the same way I did.

I think your a little bias.
You never mentioned Forrests Triangle.
Yeh Forrest didn't land any heavy punches, but he landed more punches.

The decision was correct.

Tim_AKA_God · 07-06-2008, 06:32 PM

You don't get points for "attempted" submissions just like you don't get points for attempted take downs. How can you say Forrest landed more punches, he struggled to land a clean punch the whole match while Jackson continued to land solid and clean punches through out the match.

kev0 · 07-06-2008, 06:37 PM

I also scored it 48-46 Jackson...I can see how it could be scored a 47-47 draw..I can also see how you could score Forrest as winning the fight. I can't, however, see how not a single judge had Rampage winning more than two rounds. Insanity. Either way I'm very happy for Forrest, and can't wait for the inevitable rematch. I also hope they go for the shotgun rematch as opposed to having Rampage fight once before getting his rematch.

Todthebod · 07-06-2008, 07:48 PM

I still don't see how you shouldn't get points for an attempted sub. It's like saying punching is an attempted knock out so you don't get any points. Maybe if the sub is defended and shot down quickly it shouldn't count. Just my take on it.

Tim_AKA_God · 07-06-2008, 08:40 PM

Todd you're analogy is all wrong. If points were awarded for attempted subs well then you would have to award points for missed punches, because they were attempted strikes and you know how ridiculous that sounds.

Pitbull · 07-06-2008, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim_AKA_God

Todd you're analogy is all wrong. If points were awarded for attempted subs well then you would have to award points for missed punches, because they were attempted strikes and you know how ridiculous that sounds.

I disagree with your analogy, Tim.

An attempted submission is more like throwing a strike at your opponent, landing, but not knocking him out.

Attempting submissions is showing aggression, and you should score points for that.

kev0 · 07-06-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitbull

I disagree with your ananlogy, Tim.

An attempted submission is more like throwing a strike at your opponent, landing, but not knocking him out.

Attempting submissions is showing aggression, and you should score points for that.

So what about an attempted slam then?

Pitbull · 07-06-2008, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kev0

So what about an attempted slam then?

What about it?

opsy · 07-06-2008, 10:52 PM

It also shows aggression and control of your opponent.

MTKrav911 · 07-06-2008, 11:08 PM

Yep, last I checked the UFC rules are "Aggression, Effective Strking, and Octagon Control".

Can you say with a straight face that Forrest Griffin had all those aspects for more fof the fight than Ramapge?

Rampage stalked Forrest, not Forrest stalking Rampage (Octagon Control). When Forrest did take the middle? He got hurt.. And dropped, and semi-slammed, and cut, etc.

I was at the fight, and seem to remember alot of backing up a majority of the fight with Forrest.

That's not Octagon Control.

I think this was a great fight. And my bias towards Rampage aside, I think it is not a good thing for the sport to have a new champion win by controversial decision. He did not "beat" Rampage.

A "Beaten" guy doesent leave the ring/cage with no cuts, etc.

Forest knows he didnt win. He used his "smarts" by staying away from Rampage, and still took alot of damage. So if that's the new legacy of Champs? Staying away and playing it safe? Great. So be it.

But it's not good for the sport.

If the UFC knows whats good for it, it HAD BETTER schedule an immediate rematch once both fighters are cleared medically.

or else.

But I like Forrest. I congratulate him, and hope he gets to PROVE all of us right or wrong. I wish Rampage a quick recovery if indeed his knee is blown from that kick/kicks. I also agree with the analysis that far too many good MMA fighters neglect to check the kicks.

But that's the fault of poor Muay Thai training, and why i firmly believe that many claim to train Muay Thai, but NOT REAL Muay Thai. It's basically American Kickboxing where they dont check kicks.

We need to recruit more straight from Bangkok THai trainers here, or more fighters will suffer un-necessarily.

Tim_AKA_God · 07-07-2008, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitbull

I disagree with your analogy, Tim.

An attempted submission is more like throwing a strike at your opponent, landing, but not knocking him out.

Attempting submissions is showing aggression, and you should score points for that.

I'd actually have to say that submission attempts are most similiar to take down attempts. You get points for take down defense so submission defense would also be similiar.

Chewman · 07-07-2008, 06:34 AM

Fact is they could not finish the fight - and they left it in the hands of three people. We ALL know when it goes to points.. everyones opinions are gonna be different. The one item that is very clear is how close the fight was. Could have went either way.

Forest won... and I'd assume the next time they fight it will go about the same way.