NTNS

Everybody keeps mentioning "THE BIG THREE" in pride, but their leaving out Mark Hunt. I know this is a UFC board, but since we're on the subject, I've been watching Hunt for a long time. He did great in K-1 and then came to Pride, soon whipping the 205 king, Vanderlei Silva, and then beating the crap out of Cro Cop. (I'd hate to feel the headache Mirko had after that fight.)
Hunt's got to be the 2nd best puncher in pride - right next to Fedor! That's going to be a great fight whenever it happens.

SmashingMachine

Hunt and Cro Cop fight very similar. Cro Cop was/is tailor made for Mark Hunt. However, Hunts ground skills are very limited. This is where he gets into trouble if fighting AA, Fedor, or Nog. Now, if he can really develop his ground skills...then look out...but as of his last fight...they're not where they need to be yet.

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Crashsti

Hunt only needs to learn how to defend submissions, stalemate the ground fight and get it standing again. Hunt, like CroCop are strikers first and whatever other skills they learn should compliment that striking. the chances of a man like Hunt slapping submissions on everyone is unlikely but he definately needs to learn to recognize positions that are dangerous and avoid them.

SeikanJudanski

I don´t think there is an argument about how bad the UFC´s HW D is.. about them bringing new HW´s.. who? Sean Gannon? is this UFC`s idea of getting more serious fighters? Well, Pride is not doing a better job by placing Giant Silva, however they don´t lack talent in that division or any of the other ones.

Prides´s HW- Fedor, CroCop, Big Nog, Sergei, Overeem, Hunt, Barnett, Herring, Alexsander E, Werdum even Coleman and Randleman can give a good performance at times.

UFC´s - AA and who else?

Well.. about the LHW division, Liddell is an immense fighter.. but his luck was limited in Pride he can always come back and get some more. So if he is the best LHW in the UFC.. he wasn´t able to be the best in Pride or even get near to the title. Infact he would have to come back and revenge his loss to Rampage, try to get at Silva and we still got Rua, Arona and little Nog lurking.. all fighters he could go down against.. hard. He has a notable win against Overeem, but Alistair is fighting in HW now. So besides Liddell there is only Babalu left in that divison, Pride outscores UFC`s LHW with Silva, Little Nog, Arona, Rua, Nakamura, Jackson, and Belfort if he ever decides to come back. Sadly for UFC Couture retired. He would have made up alot of ground for the UFC in this division. Heck, Sakurba could probably beat the entire UFC LHW division in one night, with the exception of Babalu and Liddell.

UFC´s LHW - Liddell, Babalu.. who else?

Pride´s - Silva, Rua, Arona, Little Nog, Jackson, Sakuraba, Nakamura

UFC´s MW category seems to be the best they got.. and this is where they make up for the deficits in the LHW division. Franklin, Lindland.. all good fighters. Could they beat Henderson, Bustamante or Filho?? Possible.. these guys are all equal good.

UFC´s Welterweights.. so many talents in this class.. too many to name. This division is owned by UFC. But Pride´s Lightweights could move up 10lbs, nd be a match for any of them.

UFC´s Lightweights.. in this category I would have to say it is almost completely dominated by Pride. Gomi, Sakurai, Filho, Hansen , Edwards, Pulver, etc, etc, etc..

And there remains so many fighters in each division I didn´t mention since they don´t fight that often. I bet a thousand bucks Yosuke Nishijima could give the entire UFC MW divison a run for their money, or even the LHW´s.

Why would Nog or Crocop want to leave Pride? Let´s not make Fedor invincible. Sure, it´s hard to say if he will ever lose.. but it can happen. Fedor is only Human, let CroCop get another chance, catch him good and it could turn around. Nog is a master, and wants to test himself with the best.. I don´t think he has plans to test his skills on AA.. and then what? These guys are the real deal..Pride pays better anyway, so there is not much motivation for them two to go. CroCop won´t quit until he is Pride HW Champ. He is hungry for the title.


The only problem Pride has is counting the money they make, and satisfying the spectators with even MORE spectacular matches than they have continued to give us in the past. Look at 31.. a moderate card which ended up being a very good PPV. So even when they don´t place all their best fighters, they still make some good fights. Fedor is somebody everybody wants to beat, this is to Prides advantage, not disadvantage. The world´s best fighters come to Pride to see if they can get a shot at the title.. most of them are champions in their Art and want to be Pride champions. I don´t and refuse to see Fedor being undefeated in Pride a "problem" for PFC. Don´t compare Fedor to AA.. AA is the champ because the HW´s are not good in the UFC.. Fedor is champ because he is the man.. and everybody wants to beat the man. UFC`s situation is similar to the HW´s of Boxing..no real champ, not unification, no spectacular fights.. nothing. Pride is more like the golden days of Boxing.. with a choice of incredible fighters.

Everybody can lose.. if Fedor retires TODAY.. he will retire unbeaten, the more years he stays in Pride, the chances of him losing become higher. I still don´t see how it´s a disadvantage for Pride having Fedor being their champ. Where should he go? Nowhere, he is making tons of money in Pride and has the respect of the international MMA scene. And there are still good matchups for Fedor.. he could fight CroCop again, Overeem, Sergei, Hunt.. etc..etc. Sure he will most likely win, or not. But Pride is not lacking Talent or Fights.. and if you look at the comparisons above with the other divisions.. Pride has "more" Contenders, which makes it a better organisation. Think of Pride as the Olympics of MMA, the flagbearer of MMA.

Sorry if this became a Pride vs UFC post.. but we ARE comparing AA to Fedor, so it´s kinda relevant.

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Crashsti

that is one hell of a post. right on all accounts.

sitnspin

I agree with most of what SeikanJudanski said, but I think there's more going on in the UFC's LHW division. Tito's back, and while I don't necessarily think he's going to dethrone Liddell, he'll at least make an awesome gatekeeper. SO there's Chuck, Tito, Babalu, and then the better TUF guys. Griffin and Bonnar haven't proven themselves against top level competition yet, but they're getting there. If Forrest keeps winning, ESPECIALLY if he ends up beating Tito, he'll have established himself as a credible force in that division. As I just said in another post, Rampage is now free to negotiate with the UFC (something he wasn't able to do until a couple of days ago), and Dana has the power to offer him what he wants -- a title shot, exposure, and endorsement deals.

The UFC obviously has a dead HW division, but I think there's plenty going on in WW, MW, and LHW, with the possibility of reestablishing LW.

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subgenius

I vastly underestimated Hunt, for sure. Once he beat Cro Cop, his stock rose considerably in my book. I would like to see him keep up that path of victory over great competitors like Mirko. I have to wonder if Mirko is getting burnt out in PRIDE.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

subgenius

So, you are saying that there are no new HWs out there? All of them exist now, and no more will ever be? You don't think that there are other HWs in the world?

Again, I would match any of the WW, MW, and LHW fighters in the UFC with anyone in PRIDE anyday... The UFC would even do better.

And, I am sick of Nog-Fedor fights. If PRIDE lets Nog fight Fedor again, then it confirms that they have no one that can beat Fedor. I maintain waht I said, Fedor is most likely THE unbeatable fighter in MMA HW competition. Only Fedor can cause Fedor to lose at this point.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

SeikanJudanski

Who said that there are no new HW´s in the world? I asked where are they in the UFC.. please read my post again.

Well, everybody is entitled to an opinion. You got yours and millions of MMA fans have theirs.

I have to agree I don´t want to see Nog fight Fedor again either.. but it seems as if Pride has confirmed that Fedor is going to take part in the open GP, so that should be a spectacular tournament. They could also match him up against for example Hunt, Overeem, Sergei, etc.. etc. doesn´t matter. Besides, so what if they don´t have anybody who can beat Fedor.. can you tell me WHO DOES? You are making it sound like it´s Pride´s fault that he can´t be beat.. as if they should magically pull out a opponent who can beat him, and if they can´t produce somebody it´s their fault. Sorry bro, if Fedor can´t be beat in Pride, where can he be beat? I can´t believe you are making them responsible for this. Anyway....

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subgenius

No, you said "about them bringing new HW´s.. who? Sean Gannon?"

So, you think THAT is the limit?

My opinion is very far from singular. These forums represnt a SMALL segment of any so-called MMA fandom...

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

SeikanJudanski

You just proved my point.. I asked who the UFC is bringing as new HW´s, and you correctly quoted me. So I can ask again.. what new HW´s is the UFC bringing? Sean Gannon? This is a question.. not a statement. It means is this the UFC`s idea of "bringing in new HW´s"? It´s not stating that there are no new HW´s in the world.

It´s still your opinion.. just like mine is mine. That´s the great thing about freedom of speech. I can say whatever I want, and you can as well. I am not going to try to make you accept what I believe, however one can present the facts and make dialogue. And I never said your opinion is singular.

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subgenius

Monson. Cruz. Hinkle. Vera. They are fairly new additions or recently returned. Mir is back, even if he is not himself in the octagon yet. So, I think that your one-shot example in Gannon hardly says anything -- Gannon was a novelty, not a "great hope" for the HW division in the UFC.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

SeikanJudanski

Oh sorry, did I forget to mention that I am speaking of HW´s actually worth mentioning? Monson is not new to UFC and has lost to real competition, Cruz is like brand new hasn´t proved anything, I personally don´t think much of him although he is a good ju-jitsu fighter, Hinkle has a win over, Gannon? and Vera.. I kinda like Vera, he might develop into something.

So which one of these gentlemen is the "great hope" of the UFC`?

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subgenius

AA is the great hope of the UFC, just like Fedor is the great hope of PRIDE.

YOU listed that side-show MMA fighter, Gannon, NOT me. I asked you if you thought that the HWs were done, no more to come up from anywhere. And, you threw out Gannon again. I listed some excellent examples of new UFC HW talent. I never said that they were the greatest ever. However, I bet that Vera could go toe-to-toe with anyone in PRIDE's HW division -- even Fedor (although, Vera would lose, it would be a good fight, IMO). Cruz just beat a former world champion. We will see what comes next. Hinkle is not new to MMA, but he still has room to improve. I never said Monson was new, I did say RETURNED.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

Jras0001

i dont think there is a "great hope" for the ufc's hw devision. i dont think one is even needed. true, the devision isnt as deep as we, the fans, would like to see but it is expanding and it is growing. the ufc's popularity has literally exploded over the past year or so and along with that comes more money and more people fighting. its not a situation where all of a sudden they can just double the size of the devisions as far as how many fighters each has. it takes time to do so and i think that within the next year to year and a half, the different weight devisions will start to see an influx in talent and incoming fighters for the ufc.

SeikanJudanski

A great hope or great white hope is by definition somebody who is "expected" to achieve great success. By that definition, yes AA is the great hope of the UFC. However you cannot say Fedor is the great hope of Pride.. what is there more to expect? How much more success is there to achieve? From your earlier posts, it sounded as if you want to give Pride negative points because Fedor is virtually unbeatable.. well this is not negative for Pride.

And it´s not a problem for them as you stated in an earlier post.. how could anybody say it´s a problem for the organisation to have the greatest MMA fighter in the new millenium in their line-up. In reality you are trying to compare Fedor´s situation to AA´s. But they are completely different. AA is the champ because he has 1. Talent, but 2. and this is the main reason..... there is no real competition in the UFC for him. Fedor on the other hand would own the division no matter where he fights, and no matter how much competition there is. He is just that good. If you are speaking marketing wise, believe me.. a PPV with Fedor is gonna get bought, no matter who he is fighting. Just like people used to go crazy paying 40 dollars to see Iron Mike rip somebody´s head of in the late 80´s, some of those opponents were nobodies.. did it matter? nope. But Fedor is fortunate enough that there is a huge amount of talent in Pride. They can always set up a good fight. Don´t act like the Pride HW´s is dead, only because Fedor owns it. There always has to be a king.

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SeikanJudanski

I agree the UFC is growing, which doesn´t really mean it will gain talent. You have to understand a fighters mentality. A champion wants to fight champions, glitter and glamor produce second rate champions. If the UFC is not the breeding ground or the melting pot of champions from all over the world, it will not pick up talents at the expected or wanted pace. They need to gain the respect of the MMA champions around the world, at this point.. when a MMA fighter thinks about true, and I mean TRUE competition he looks east to Japan. Why? simply because the best fighters are there. If you want to be the best, you got to beat the best. UFC is a stepping stone for many fighters.. before they actually step into the spot light of Pride. Others don´t even bother trying to fight in the UFC.. they think Pride first. A good example is for example Garner, the Olympic Gold Medalist in Judo. He is the perfect example of a Olympic champion, wanting to show or test his skills in the MMA world, so where did he show up? In Pride. If the UFC is able to draw championship material, you will see them sky rocket. At this point they are big in the States, the international MMA scene is interested in Pride.

You can´t blame the fighters in the UFC either, it´s not easy going to Japan, leaving the homeground and being one of many, instead of the hot shot. But this is the difference between wanting to attain true champion status or just being no.1 in an organisation. You have to give it to Liddell, he came and tried. Now it´s time for AA to do the same, and all the other champs from the UFC. The MMA world can only profit from this, there is nothing to lose except of good fights, championship material.

If somebody asks why Pride has so many champions.. this has to do with a long fighting tradition in Japan, which draws fighters from all over the world. Pride also has way more money than the UFC, backed by DSE and Fuji. The spectators also support Pride 100% in Japan, the Arena is always filled with 45,000 plus. MMA big in Japan, it´s just starting to gain ground in the states.. despite of the UFC being around as long as Pride. However we need to look at how they are doing internationally. Sometimes I get the impression that it only matters how big MMA is int he states by some of the views I read on the boards, like if the UFC is doing well in the states, it´s automatically doing well in the world, etc. This is only true for Boxing. Everybody knows if you want to have a big fight, you go to Las Vegas or Atlantic City. However if you want to fight at the "Mekka" of MMA, it´s in Japan. Which would not be the case if they would only have sorry fighters.. but the elite are drawn to Japan.. money, fame and status.. to be the best among the best.

The best solution to would be that UFC fighters would be allowed to fight in Pride and the other way around. That way you would see more fighters fighting here and there. However, that will probably never happen. These contracts are not good for MMA. They need to let the fighters fight wherever they want, still offering them lucrative deals. It would be nice though. And I am sure, THEN you would see unification matches, which would actuallly blow our minds. Couture tried to do it with Silva, but it didn´t go through. However , this is what makes a fighter like Randy so special, and Randy made the UFC special.

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subgenius

Actually, I think that you contradict yourself. If nothing is expected of Fedor, then you just entered into the boring aspect of an unbeatable champion. None of us expect Fedor to lose. I admit that when my favorite HW, Mirko, fought Fedor, well he had no real chance of winning. I was merely just hoping for a miracle. Mirko and Nog cannot beat Fedor. Who is left? That is the top three. Mark Hunt? Do you really believe he can beat the Man-monster Fedor?

I am not acting like PRIDE's HW division is dead. I am saying that it is stagnant -- statisc, no longer dynamic. The title will not change hands again until Fedor grows bored of being the champion. That huge ammount of talent is meaningless, if they cannot win the title. And, just how many times can Fedor beat Nog and Mirko before you guys see the writing on the wall? Nog is looking at a fourth loss already! The best he can do is push the fight to decision, and still lose. Is Zuluzinho Zuluzinho your idea of a great PRIDE contender? The only guy with a hope of beating Fedor is NOT in PRIDE.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!

subgenius

I just cannot agree with that. It is simply not true.

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BJ Penn stole my SHOE!!!