Andrei Arlovski vs Fedor Emalienenko

SmashingMachine · 04-04-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

I vastly underestimated Hunt, for sure. Once he beat Cro Cop, his stock rose considerably in my book. I would like to see him keep up that path of victory over great competitors like Mirko. I have to wonder if Mirko is getting burnt out in PRIDE.

I don't think Mirko's getting burnt out at all. I just think it's a case of matchups. Hunt and Cro Cop fight very similar. And, when each are very close in skill; usually the bigger and stronger man will win. I think Cro Cops stock is still pretty darn good.

SeikanJudanski · 04-04-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Actually, I think that you contradict yourself. If nothing is expected of Fedor, then you just entered into the boring aspect of an unbeatable champion. .

Listen, I don´t want this to get personal, but you keep misunderstanding me. Maybe it´s my English..so let me make this clear again. You said that Fedor is the great hope of Pride. I merely pointed out to you that a great hope is somebody that is expected to achieve success in something. Well Fedor is BEYOND the great hope category. So we can´t expect him to achieve success, he already has succeeded in MMA. This is what I am trying to say. And I never said that he is unbeatable. Yes, we use that word to describe his skill, but many fighters in the past, whether it was MMA, Boxing or anything else were considered unbeatable.. and that´s where the upsets come in. Don´t you think if Mirko would have caught Fedor the way Fujita did, that he would have knocked him out? I say he would have. Fedor is not God, nor is he invincible. Every great talent in the HW divison is a great hope for that title. Fedor is just bad ass top notch. It will be hard to beat him. Fedor being the champ is not boring dude. Please bring somebody who supports this outragious theory. Of course we expect him to hold that belt.. he is the Champ for crying out loud. What you don´t understand is, Pride offers more than just a HW championship, it has so much to offer in non title matches, the GP alone is one of the most exciting events in MMA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

None of us expect Fedor to lose. I admit that when my favorite HW, Mirko, fought Fedor, well he had no real chance of winning. I was merely just hoping for a miracle. Mirko and Nog cannot beat Fedor. Who is left? That is the top three. Mark Hunt? Do you really believe he can beat the Man-monster Fedor?

Mirko is also one of my favorites.. infact I like him just as much as Fedor and Nog. They are all equal in a way in my book, Fedor being the Flagbearer. I didn´t think a miracle was needed for Mirko to win. He wasn´t himself that night, and a look at Fedors face after the match shows how dangerous Mirko is. He still has a chance of beating him, let´s not go overboard. This is what I mean, Fedor is not invincible, yes we expect him to win.. but not by lightyears. Don´t count Mirko out.

And you need to give Hunt more credit. He beat your favorite HW, didn´t he? Give the man some credit, he beat Mirko and Silva.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

I am not acting like PRIDE's HW division is dead. I am saying that it is stagnant -- statisc, no longer dynamic. The title will not change hands again until Fedor grows bored of being the champion. That huge ammount of talent is meaningless, if they cannot win the title.

Like I said before, Pride has alot of non-title matches to offer. It´s not all about Fedor. It´s not meaningless that the division offers so many talents.. they make good fights amongst each other. A title doesn´t have to change hands, and non of those guys are giving up hope to become champions. Motivation is there, Talent is there, good matchmaking is there. What else do you want?

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

And, just how many times can Fedor beat Nog and Mirko before you guys see the writing on the wall? Nog is looking at a fourth loss already! The best he can do is push the fight to decision, and still lose. Is Zuluzinho Zuluzinho your idea of a great PRIDE contender?

Fedor beat Mirko by decision, there is always room for a trilogy here. Sub, you really need to loosen up. Are you saying you wouldn´t want to see Fedor and Mirko go at it again? Did anybody complain when Liddell fought Couture after getting knocked out? That fight was one of the best fights in MMA. Mirko can do better, he was completely taken out of his game plan by Fedor. Mirko is smart and he could try fighting him again, and it would be equally as good, if not better. Perhaps even a decision for Mirko. I can´t believe somebody would say he doesn´t want to see Fedor/Mirko II... sure Fedor should fight others first to be fair. But a fight between them is unavoidable, and the fans want to see it. I can´t help it if you don´t.

Zulu wasn´t a title fight. Fedor just showed some raw power before getting surgery on his hand. That´s all. No he is not a contender, or it would have been a title fight. Nog, fought Fedor three times because, the second time, Fedor got cut. People are talking about him fighting Fedor again, well that is not confirmed unless they meet in the GP. I am not even wasting time thinking about Nog fighting Fedor again. Right now I am hyped at the upcoming GP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

The only guy with a hope of beating Fedor is NOT in PRIDE.

Listen man, AA would get beat down by Mirko, Knocked out by Hunt, Submitted by Nog and embarassed by Overeem. And don´t let Sergei go on a blood frenzy. All of them could beat AA. AA is nothing special, he is a good fighter in a dead division. No reason at all to assume he has a chance against Fedor, or Mirko, or Nog.. Marketing wise, yes it would be a strong move. From a fighting perspective, sorry I only would want to see it happen to make people be quite about him being able to beat Fedor. Any of the top 5 Pride HWs could take him out.

SeikanJudanski · 04-04-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeikanJudanski

I agree the UFC is growing, which doesn´t really mean it will gain talent. You have to understand a fighters mentality. A champion wants to fight champions, glitter and glamor produce second rate champions. If the UFC is not the breeding ground or the melting pot of champions from all over the world, it will not pick up talents at the expected or wanted pace. They need to gain the respect of the MMA champions around the world, at this point.. when a MMA fighter thinks about true, and I mean TRUE competition he looks east to Japan. Why? simply because the best fighters are there. If you want to be the best, you got to beat the best. UFC is a stepping stone for many fighters.. before they actually step into the spot light of Pride. Others don´t even bother trying to fight in the UFC.. they think Pride first. A good example is for example Garner, the Olympic Gold Medalist in Judo. He is the perfect example of a Olympic champion, wanting to show or test his skills in the MMA world, so where did he show up? In Pride. If the UFC is able to draw championship material, you will see them sky rocket. At this point they are big in the States, the international MMA scene is interested in Pride.

You can´t blame the fighters in the UFC either, it´s not easy going to Japan, leaving the homeground and being one of many, instead of the hot shot. But this is the difference between wanting to attain true champion status or just being no.1 in an organisation. You have to give it to Liddell, he came and tried. Now it´s time for AA to do the same, and all the other champs from the UFC. The MMA world can only profit from this, there is nothing to lose except of good fights, championship material.

If somebody asks why Pride has so many champions.. this has to do with a long fighting tradition in Japan, which draws fighters from all over the world. Pride also has way more money than the UFC, backed by DSE and Fuji. The spectators also support Pride 100% in Japan, the Arena is always filled with 45,000 plus. MMA big in Japan, it´s just starting to gain ground in the states.. despite of the UFC being around as long as Pride. However we need to look at how they are doing internationally. Sometimes I get the impression that it only matters how big MMA is int he states by some of the views I read on the boards, like if the UFC is doing well in the states, it´s automatically doing well in the world, etc. This is only true for Boxing. Everybody knows if you want to have a big fight, you go to Las Vegas or Atlantic City. However if you want to fight at the "Mekka" of MMA, it´s in Japan. Which would not be the case if they would only have sorry fighters.. but the elite are drawn to Japan.. money, fame and status.. to be the best among the best.

The best solution to would be that UFC fighters would be allowed to fight in Pride and the other way around. That way you would see more fighters fighting here and there. However, that will probably never happen. These contracts are not good for MMA. They need to let the fighters fight wherever they want, still offering them lucrative deals. It would be nice though. And I am sure, THEN you would see unification matches, which would actuallly blow our minds. Couture tried to do it with Silva, but it didn´t go through. However , this is what makes a fighter like Randy so special, and Randy made the UFC special.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

I just cannot agree with that. It is simply not true.

Well, let´s just agree to disagree. This whole debate is going nowhere.

Flying Triangle Choke · 04-04-2006, 03:10 PM

So is it official that Fedor is going to be in that Open Weight Grand Prix?

subgenius · 04-04-2006, 04:27 PM

Mirko keeps getting derailed. He has been close to the title, but it slips away. He had to win seven fights to get at Fedor, IIRC. I want him to win that title. But, lets be real. If he loses Fedor-Mirko 2, then it is over. Nog is 0-3, Mirko would then be 0-2. No one wants to see them at 0-3 and 0-4 and 0-5 against the champ. THAT is stagnation.

Liddell-Couture has no resemblence to this at all--whatsoever. Except that they are a series. But, Liddell-Couture warranted three matches. They went 1-1, so a tie breaker was inevitable, anticipated. Liddell-Horn are 1-1, and people would want to see a third match. GSP is 0-1 against Hughes. If GSP loses in GSP-Hughes 2, then that may be the end of his title run.

I said that I am more impressed with, had underestimated, Mark Hunt. But, seriously, I just do not see him defeating Fedor. It is my opinion, that Fedor will not lose the title. But, then, I never thought Tyson would lose to Douglas. Is there a "Buster Douglas" in PRIDE? I just don't think so. I think Fedor is in a league of his own where some people just visit for a spell.

What I like about PRIDE over the UFC is the tournaments. The UFC just does not seem to run them anymore (outside of possibly TUF).

Maybe this is all just an argument about philosophy of MMA. I just do not agree that one of these promotions is superior and the other inferior. I think they each do what they do very well. I love the UFC more because it is here, close by, and tangible to me in ways that PRIDE FC just cannot be... That is more cultural, and proximity related.

SeikanJudanski · 04-04-2006, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Mirko keeps getting derailed. He has been close to the title, but it slips away. He had to win seven fights to get at Fedor, IIRC. I want him to win that title. But, lets be real. If he loses Fedor-Mirko 2, then it is over. Nog is 0-3, Mirko would then be 0-2. No one wants to see them at 0-3 and 0-4 and 0-5 against the champ. THAT is stagnation.

Mirko was expecting to fight Fedor in the 2004 GP, and he was very well on his way, pounding Nog until the Submission Magician submitted him. So in Final Conflict he beat up Fedor´s brother to send him a message. Then it took him 4 more wins, to get at Fedor. I have to tip my hat off to Mirko, he went on a Rampage until he got to Fedor, knocking people out left and right. I still believe he has a chance to beat Fedor. The odds are against him, but if he comes in with that deadly determination, and stays at peak level during the fight, he can pull it off. In their first fight he totally lost his game plan, and seems tired, maybe the pressure got to him.
Well, we all want to see him get that title. Yes, if he loses again I agree there should be no third fight. But there is no reason to assume there will be anyway, look... Nog didn´t lose the second fight, ok he was losing it, but he didn´t lose. It was stopped and ruled no contest. Fedor hat an inch deep cut 3 inches wide. The fight was stopped. This is the reason why they fought a third time. Nog is 0-2 against Fedor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Liddell-Couture has no resemblence to this at all--whatsoever. Except that they are a series. But, Liddell-Couture warranted three matches. They went 1-1, so a tie breaker was inevitable, anticipated. Liddell-Horn are 1-1, and people would want to see a third match. GSP is 0-1 against Hughes. If GSP loses in GSP-Hughes 2, then that may be the end of his title run.

Always when there is a tie, there is a tiebreaker, however I just got the feeling that you don´t even want to see Mirko try to tie it up. Nog also tried to tie it up, you can´t blame him or Fedor for that. The reason I mentioned Liddell and Couture was because nobody was like.. "oh noooo not a second fight, he will get knocked out.." etc. etc. People love to see rematches, nothing wrong with that. But when it gets one sided I agree, it´s stagnation. Fedor hasn´t fought anybody three times though yet. Like I said, That second fight with Nog was stopped, of course there was a third match to end the fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

I said that I am more impressed with, had underestimated, Mark Hunt. But, seriously, I just do not see him defeating Fedor. It is my opinion, that Fedor will not lose the title. But, then, I never thought Tyson would lose to Douglas. Is there a "Buster Douglas" in PRIDE? I just don't think so. I think Fedor is in a league of his own where some people just visit for a spell.

I don´t think he can beat Fedor either, but his chin and power give him at least a chance. About Buster Douglas, it wasn´t Douglas who beat Tyson it was Tyson who beat himself. Holyfield took away Douglas´s title in 2 rounds.
I would say Pride has many fighters who could pull off a "douglas", but Fedor is not Tyson. Fedor is more complete, in control of his health and mental state, and more serious about this than Tyson probably ever was with the exception of the time he was with Cus d´amato. Fedor can still be matched up against Mirko once more, Hunt, Overeem, Sergei and Barnett. All good fights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

What I like about PRIDE over the UFC is the tournaments. The UFC just does not seem to run them anymore (outside of possibly TUF).

Oh same here baby.. I am a big fan of Tournaments. Specially when fighters fight more than once a night. It takes me back to the days of Vale Tudo and the beginning of the UFC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Maybe this is all just an argument about philosophy of MMA. I just do not agree that one of these promotions is superior and the other inferior. I think they each do what they do very well. I love the UFC more because it is here, close by, and tangible to me in ways that PRIDE FC just cannot be... That is more cultural, and proximity related.

No problem with that at all.

[Danny] · 04-05-2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hughespowerslam

So is it official that Fedor is going to be in that Open Weight Grand Prix?

He's going to finally get his fist fixed and take this year off except NYE. He'll probably fight the winner of the Absolute GP in a championship bout.

SmashingMachine · 04-05-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

I said that I am more impressed with, had underestimated, Mark Hunt. But, seriously, I just do not see him defeating Fedor. It is my opinion, that Fedor will not lose the title. But, then, I never thought Tyson would lose to Douglas. Is there a "Buster Douglas" in PRIDE? I just don't think so. I think Fedor is in a league of his own where some people just visit for a spell.

The difference between Tyson and Fedor is that Fedor really is in a league of his own. Mike Tyson just looked like he was until somebody stepped up and exposed the myth. Fedor's beaten monsters. Tyson's beaten scrubs, or over-the-hill fighters. I think Fedor too has a good chance of retiring unbeaten, in Pride, but with more and more talent popping up, advances in training and fighting techniques, etc...it's still going to be a tall task for Fedor. No man is unbeatable. If Fujita can rock him, a guy like Cro-Cop, Mark Hunt, Sergei, or even an AA could knock him out if they were to land a few good shots like Fujita was able to do.

[Danny] · 04-05-2006, 11:50 PM

Fedor has beaten whos who in MMA at heavyweight. The only guys that could "test" him are Arlovski, Sergei, and Hunt. But, I could see him submitting Hunt, and dominating Sergei and Arlovski.

I'll say it again. Fedor is God!