Bj Penn

subgenius · 09-27-2006, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angryjonny

The thing is though BJ's standup is light years ahead of Diego's. BJ acknowledged that Hughes was way better at standup than they fought the first time. I don't think BJ would even need to worry about Diego's ground. Because like Diego or not, his standup is atrocious. I know it may get better over the years but right now I've seen girl fights at high school with better technique.

I'm just saying. A major aspect of gaidojutsu is kickboxing. Gadiojutsu was originally a combination of wrestling and Judo techniques, but Jackson incorporated Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and kickboxing to make the system complete. Diego and Joey Villasenor, IIRC, are considered the best practioners (both are black belts). Diego has not showcased his kickboxing, but that does not mean it is not there. I won't say Diego is a BJ level striker, but I bet Diego could use it to frustrate Penn into a takedown and GnP by Diego.

angryjonny · 09-27-2006, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

I'm just saying. A major aspect of gaidojutsu is kickboxing. Gadiojutsu was originally a combination of wrestling and Judo techniques, but Jackson incorporated Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and kickboxing to make the system complete. Diego and Joey Villasenor, IIRC, are considered the best practioners (both are black belts). Diego has not showcased his kickboxing, but that does not mean it is not there. I won't say Diego is a BJ level striker, but I bet Diego could use it to frustrate Penn into a takedown and GnP by Diego.

I understand that but what I was getting at is it takes like 3 to 5 years (someone correct me on that one) to learn proper boxing technique and that is without cross training so probably longer if you can't dedicate the time just to boxing. I do not know how much formal training he has in boxing so I can't say for sure. I get what you are saying though. I just remember seeing him when he was trying to box and it was almost emberassing to watch. I know that's not his game though. I'd say his best bet would be to get it to the ground as soon as possible and try to wear BJ out and avoid standup at all costs because BJ isn't going to just one-jab like Alessio did.

sitnspin · 09-27-2006, 08:23 PM

The promotion would have to have medical insurance in case anyone gets hurt and it's their fault. But for injuries sustained in the normal course of a fight, it's up to the fighter to have his own coverage.

w0264007 · 09-27-2006, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Hey, maybe Diego can put the backpack hold on BJ Penn the way that he did John Alessio, and make BJ Penn carry Diego around the ring until Penn gasses out, LOL. Seriously, I agree with you. I am one of those that believe that Diego's Gaidujustu style (trained by Greg Jackson) is easily a match for Penn's BJJ.

Diego also trains boxing with the Mexican national boxing team. His stand-up will improve more as he goes along. And, he spent some time at a camp held by Fedor Emilianenko just before the fight with Karo Parisyan, and I think that paid off well for Diego.

I think Deigo's heart is his biggest advantage over BJ Penn. BJ's standup isn't very technical. He's just got a ton of natural ability. Diego's stand up seemed much more technical than Penn's, but I still think BJ could outstrike him. Penn also has the advantage on the ground, but Diego refuses to lose, and Penn has been defeated several times when he gets bored. Heart makes all the difference.

subgenius · 09-27-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0264007

I think Deigo's heart is his biggest advantage over BJ Penn. BJ's standup isn't very technical. He's just got a ton of natural ability. Diego's stand up seemed much more technical than Penn's, but I still think BJ could outstrike him. Penn also has the advantage on the ground, but Diego refuses to lose, and Penn has been defeated several times when he gets bored. Heart makes all the difference.

I think that is true. Besides Nick Diaz, I do not think that Diego has ever fought anyone that has the flexibility that BJ Penn has. So much is made of BJ Penn's BJJ skills and his striking ability, which are great. BUT, I think that what makes his BJJ so great is that he has the most flexible (contortion-like) body in MMA that I can recall. It has always seemed strange to me that Penn fans rarely comment on Penn's flexibility. I think that Diego has the advantage in wrestling against Penn, but that Penn represents a greater danger in submissions. And, like Matt Hughes, I think that Diego has both cardio and power over Penn.

Bomber · 09-27-2006, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sitnspin

The promotion would have to have medical insurance in case anyone gets hurt and it's their fault.

Fault would be covered by liability insurance, not medical insurance. Medical insurance is health insurance, for treatment, Xrays, hospitalization etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sitnspin

But for injuries sustained in the normal course of a fight, it's up to the fighter to have his own coverage.

From the little bit I read on this, I believe a fighter has to carry medical insurance to be registered with a sanctioning body. They charge $5.00 to register a fighter, but he has to have health insurance before he can register.

Medical treatment after an event falls to the organizer. I'm certainly no expert, but that's what I think I understood from the sanctioning body sites I browsed.

angryjonny · 09-28-2006, 12:21 AM

The $5 is just for the license. It has nothing to do with the insurance. And if you have insurance already then it's not something that the UFC is going to pay for. There is no need for them to provide it except for the things I mentioned already. Most of the "medical" stuff that the UFC is going to be paying for anyway is just the medical staff on hand at the event in case they are needed and if they need to take an ambulance to the hospital.

subgenius · 09-28-2006, 01:17 AM

This thread needs a kick in the butt:

BJ Penn just got owned!

Matt Hughes is mighty!

Gooner · 09-28-2006, 06:24 AM

Putting Diaz against BJ would be insane. Diaz lost 3 fights in a row, and only just got a win. Diego is the only logical fight next for BJ at WW.
Diego shouldn't take a step back and fight someone ranked under Karo, and BJ sure as hell shouldn't fight Karo or lower, after these two showings against GSP and Hughes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0264007

I think Deigo's heart is his biggest advantage over BJ Penn. BJ's standup isn't very technical. He's just got a ton of natural ability. Diego's stand up seemed much more technical than Penn's, but I still think BJ could outstrike him. Penn also has the advantage on the ground, but Diego refuses to lose, and Penn has been defeated several times when he gets bored. Heart makes all the difference.

That's just it. Natural ability plays a huge part. It's "unfair", but that's the way it is. Diego will never be the striker Penn is, no matter how much he trains.
And like Ryduce said, if Hughes (and Couture) struggles that much to get BJ on the ground (and then ends up giving his back), Diego would be damn near hopeless. Remember the Alessio-fight? The fight with BJ and Diego would be 3 rounds too, I just don't see how Diego could win it. And that's partly why I wanna see the fight too.

Diego's tough, but I'm not a fan. I wanna see his undefeated record go.

I think Diego would have the best chance of winning against Hughes out of the top 3. BJ and GSP would both pick him apart standing, and be able to keep it standing.

Bomber · 09-28-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by w0264007

I still think BJ could outstrike him.

Man, that has to be the understatement of the year.

subgenius · 09-28-2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooner

Putting Diaz against BJ would be insane. Diaz lost 3 fights in a row, and only just got a win. Diego is the only logical fight next for BJ at WW.
Diego shouldn't take a step back and fight someone ranked under Karo, and BJ sure as hell shouldn't fight Karo or lower, after these two showings against GSP and Hughes.

Karo and Diaz should fight next, but let's face it: Diaz, Penn, and Parisyan are all on a upward spike in losses. Diego Sánchez is most definately on an upward spike in wins and has never lost. GSP has not lost since his first fight with Matt Hughes. Matt Hughes has not lost in well over two years now. That means that GSP, Hughes, and Diego are all now in the title ring of the WW division.

IMO, Karo, Diaz, and Penn need to fight each other to determine which of them will move back up to the circle of contenders. Karo especially needs a fast win to get the loss to Diego behind him and to move up. Penn and Diaz are VERY desperate for a fast win.

Penn, if he was smart (and I think that he is), would ask for Nick Diaz immediately. Penn can get a win and make it over a respectable fighter. BJ could also show Dana White that BJ Penn still wants to fight in the UFC. I see a lot for Penn to gain in a match with Diaz.

Or, Diaz can get a win over someone everybody else seems to regard as a legend in BJ Penn. Diaz beat Robbie Lawler when Lawler seemed to be the next big thing in the WW division. Maybe, with a win over Penn, Diaz could get back to that place he was after the Lawler win. Also, Diaz once accused Diego of not being title material or whatever, that he did not deserve to be there, IIRC. Now, ironically, it is Diaz that must prove his own worth while Diego is at the top with GSP and Matt Hughes.

A win for Karo over Penn would do the same for Karo, IMO. And, this idea of a Karo-Penn match would be similar for Penn should he win as it would were Penn to defeat Diaz. And, there are no other fighters to choose from. It goes like this: 1. Hughes, 2. GSP, 3. Diego, 4. Penn, 5. Karo, 5. Diaz. I rank Penn as a three because he is now 0-2 in his last two UFC fights while Diego is undefeated. I rank Diaz and Karo as tied for that number five spot because I am unsure which is higher ranked.

I will add that, IMO, it seems like a Diego-Penn fight does not really do as much for Diego as it will for Penn. Why should Diego take a fight with Penn when he can wait a little while longer and get a match with the winner of the Hughes-GSP title fight. Diego is going that way with or without a fight with Penn.

I am just thinking practically here, because a Diego win over Penn will crush all of the Penn fans and no one will ever again be able to say that Diego Sánchez is not among the most elite of UFC fighters. A title shot would be assured and wrapped in gold! But, is Penn-Sánchez necessary? Does Diego need it to gain a shot a UFC gold?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooner

That's just it. Natural ability plays a huge part. It's "unfair", but that's the way it is. Diego will never be the striker Penn is, no matter how much he trains.
And like Ryduce said, if Hughes (and Couture) struggles that much to get BJ on the ground (and then ends up giving his back), Diego would be damn near hopeless. Remember the Alessio-fight? The fight with BJ and Diego would be 3 rounds too, I just don't see how Diego could win it. And that's partly why I wanna see the fight too.

Diego's tough, but I'm not a fan. I wanna see his undefeated record go.

I think Diego would have the best chance of winning against Hughes out of the top 3. BJ and GSP would both pick him apart standing, and be able to keep it standing.

While I won't compare Diego's striking ability with Penn's striking ability in the stand-up arena, I do think that Diego has a solid skill set for GnP and other strikes on the ground. But, look at what Randy Couture did to Chuck Liddell. The only clean KO that Couture ever had was against the one guy that is considered possibly the greatest striker in the game. Also, Diego is no stranger to facing and defeating good strikers. Maybe not Liddell or Penn level strikers.

They all have a punchers chance. Diego showed dirty boxing skills against Karo and a desire to display learned stand-up striking.

What do you think Fedor was thinking when he saw Diego among the fighters at his camp a while back? Seeing an undefeated WW there... Makes me wonder how much one-on-one training Diego may have recieved from Fedor. Would you doubt a single bit of data that Fedor gave to you about fighting? Fedor can strike. Maybe he taught some things to Diego.

But, I will also submitt that needing superior striking ability is not a must for Diego. It might make him better, but he already has a definately superior skill set in his gaidojutsu training. Matt Hughes is the champ, and not well known for striking ability. I think that average or maybe just above average striking skills is all that Diego needs.

I agree about Diego-Hughes. I actually see Diego as a better striker than Matt Hughes. Their styles are fairly similar, except that Hughes has superior slamming ability. It is in the power area that I want to know who is better. Diego is strong, but maybe not Matt Hughes strong.

Bomber · 09-28-2006, 11:55 AM

I think you wrote all that just because you're afraid they'll match Diego with BJ.

Nick Diaz is not in this. I could see Penn/Karo, but Nick is one rung below with a lot of fighters who are just as deserving as him. They need to sort out who in that group moves up to fight someone in the elite rank.

Dirty Fighter · 09-28-2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subgenius

Karo and Diaz should fight next, but let's face it: Diaz, Penn, and Parisyan are all on a upward spike in losses. Diego Sánchez is most definately on an upward spike in wins and has never lost. GSP has not lost since his first fight with Matt Hughes. Matt Hughes has not lost in well over two years now. That means that GSP, Hughes, and Diego are all now in the title ring of the WW division.

IMO, Karo, Diaz, and Penn need to fight each other to determine which of them will move back up to the circle of contenders. Karo especially needs a fast win to get the loss to Diego behind him and to move up. Penn and Diaz are VERY desperate for a fast win.

Penn, if he was smart (and I think that he is), would ask for Nick Diaz immediately. Penn can get a win and make it over a respectable fighter. BJ could also show Dana White that BJ Penn still wants to fight in the UFC. I see a lot for Penn to gain in a match with Diaz.

Or, Diaz can get a win over someone everybody else seems to regard as a legend in BJ Penn. Diaz beat Robbie Lawler when Lawler seemed to be the next big thing in the WW division. Maybe, with a win over Penn, Diaz could get back to that place he was after the Lawler win. Also, Diaz once accused Diego of not being title material or whatever, that he did not deserve to be there, IIRC. Now, ironically, it is Diaz that must prove his own worth while Diego is at the top with GSP and Matt Hughes.

A win for Karo over Penn would do the same for Karo, IMO. And, this idea of a Karo-Penn match would be similar for Penn should he win as it would were Penn to defeat Diaz. And, there are no other fighters to choose from. It goes like this: 1. Hughes, 2. GSP, 3. Diego, 4. Penn, 5. Karo, 5. Diaz. I rank Penn as a three because he is now 0-2 in his last two UFC fights while Diego is undefeated. I rank Diaz and Karo as tied for that number five spot because I am unsure which is higher ranked.

I will add that, IMO, it seems like a Diego-Penn fight does not really do as much for Diego as it will for Penn. Why should Diego take a fight with Penn when he can wait a little while longer and get a match with the winner of the Hughes-GSP title fight. Diego is going that way with or without a fight with Penn.

I am just thinking practically here, because a Diego win over Penn will crush all of the Penn fans and no one will ever again be able to say that Diego Sánchez is not among the most elite of UFC fighters. A title shot would be assured and wrapped in gold! But, is Penn-Sánchez necessary? Does Diego need it to gain a shot a UFC gold?

While I won't compare Diego's striking ability with Penn's striking ability in the stand-up arena, I do think that Diego has a solid skill set for GnP and other strikes on the ground. But, look at what Randy Couture did to Chuck Liddell. The only clean KO that Couture ever had was against the one guy that is considered possibly the greatest striker in the game. Also, Diego is no stranger to facing and defeating good strikers. Maybe not Liddell or Penn level strikers.

They all have a punchers chance. Diego showed dirty boxing skills against Karo and a desire to display learned stand-up striking.

What do you think Fedor was thinking when he saw Diego among the fighters at his camp a while back? Seeing an undefeated WW there... Makes me wonder how much one-on-one training Diego may have recieved from Fedor. Would you doubt a single bit of data that Fedor gave to you about fighting? Fedor can strike. Maybe he taught some things to Diego.

But, I will also submitt that needing superior striking ability is not a must for Diego. It might make him better, but he already has a definately superior skill set in his gaidojutsu training. Matt Hughes is the champ, and not well known for striking ability. I think that average or maybe just above average striking skills is all that Diego needs.

I agree about Diego-Hughes. I actually see Diego as a better striker than Matt Hughes. Their styles are fairly similar, except that Hughes has superior slamming ability. It is in the power area that I want to know who is better. Diego is strong, but maybe not Matt Hughes strong.

What about Couture/Belfort I way back when. Vitor was considered light years ahead of everybody in standup back then and Couture TKO'd him.

Gooner · 09-28-2006, 12:48 PM

Bomber, knows sub. You're only afraid, that one of your favourites (Diego) will get pwned by the man you hate most in the world (BJ).

Randy-Chuck was not a "clean KO" by any strecth of imagination.

Karo should definitely rank above Diaz. He beat him at UFC 49, then beat Lytle, Serra and Thompson (before the loss to Diego), while at the same time Diaz lost 3 fights in a row.

The fact, that BJ has lost his last 2 fights in the UFC, doesn't matter cos they were against the #1 and #2. Those three guys are widely thought of as being above the rest anyway, and those wins for Hughes and GSP were anything but easy.
So, it wouldn't make sense to feed someone ranked at 7 or something to BJ. Trust me, boys. Like most fighters, Diego will only get better because of the loss.
And he'll lose the undefeated record. It's a win-win.

subgenius · 09-28-2006, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomber

I think you wrote all that just because you're afraid they'll match Diego with BJ.

Nick Diaz is not in this. I could see Penn/Karo, but Nick is one rung below with a lot of fighters who are just as deserving as him. They need to sort out who in that group moves up to fight someone in the elite rank.

That was my long-winded post for the day, LOL. I can agree that Nick Diaz is a rung below Karo. I think that Karo-Penn sounds good, and we get Hughes-GSP, with Diego getting the winner of that and his title shot. Then we can get GSP-Penn 2, should GSP lose to Hughes and Penn win over Karo. Or Hughes-Penn 3, if Hughes loses to GSP and Penn still beats Karo. After all that, if Diego loses his title shot, then a Diego-Penn match would make a lot more sense.

subgenius · 09-28-2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooner

Bomber, knows sub. You're only afraid, that one of your favourites (Diego) will get pwned by the man you hate most in the world (BJ).

Randy-Chuck was not a "clean KO" by any strecth of imagination.

Karo should definitely rank above Diaz. He beat him at UFC 49, then beat Lytle, Serra and Thompson (before the loss to Diego), while at the same time Diaz lost 3 fights in a row.

The fact, that BJ has lost his last 2 fights in the UFC, doesn't matter cos they were against the #1 and #2. Those three guys are widely thought of as being above the rest anyway, and those wins for Hughes and GSP were anything but easy.
So, it wouldn't make sense to feed someone ranked at 7 or something to BJ. Trust me, boys. Like most fighters, Diego will only get better because of the loss.
And he'll lose the undefeated record. It's a win-win.

Yes, I am afraid that Penn would beat Diego. I'm also afraid that Hughes and GSP will beat Sánchez. Those are the top guys outside of Karo and Diaz, and we know Diego has the wins over them already. The Randy-Chuck Ko is listed as an official KO and not a TKO. That is what I meant. As pointed out, Couture has beat other supposedly superior strikers than himself.

I still like the idea of a Karo-Penn fight. But, I do understand what you mean by ranking Penn as number three rather at number four as I had done. #1 and #2 are fighting next, so you're saying #3 and #4 should fight with the winners facing each other afterwards? I can live with that, but I still feel Diego can win out over Penn somehow. But, after Penn (possibly) loses to Diego, THEN he should have to fight Karo Parisyan, or at the least GSP-Penn 2.

w0264007 · 09-28-2006, 02:55 PM

I think Penn needs a couple of wins to prove he belongs where he does before getting another title shot (I believe in you BJ, I just want you to prove yourself to the skeptics). Poor Nick Diaz would get his ass handed to him by Penn. Diego could potentially LnP his way to a decision, which I think he could win, but I can't see him beating BJ any other way.

GeorgeXVX · 09-28-2006, 03:26 PM

Bj Penn Stole My Shoe!

comucazi · 09-28-2006, 03:28 PM

i think diego would get too excited and give himself up to a submission

Ryduce · 09-28-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by comucazi

i think diego would get too excited and give himself up to a submission

In the ADCC a young Diego went 19 minutes with Marcelo Garcia(who is the champ of that division)and even took his back at one point.He eventually got caught in an armbar,but he didn't even look close to tiring after 19 minutes.

Diego is one of the most patient and skilled BJJ fighters in MMA.He is way more skilled than Hughes or GSP in that area,and BJ couldn't sub either one of them in his recent fights.He got close,but couldn't finish them.Diego is a very formidable opponent on the ground,and if anyone were to ever submit Penn,it would be him.

The fight would have an incredibly offensive guard vs an incredibly defensive guard,and if Diego did somehow manage to take BJ down it would probably be even more exciting than the Karo fight.

I know BJ is a god to everyone,but Diego has more than a chance against anyone in that division.