gilitine

Wassup my ninjas! I have a question. About 13 years ago this slender fella with no muscles named Royce Gracie stepped into the octagon and dominated his bigger, muscle-headed opponents w/BJJ. It was a real eye opener to see the smaller guy submit the bigger guys. However, it is now 2007, and in my opinion, I feel that BJJ has taken a back seat to wrestling. I really rescpect all BJJ practioners but I feel that wrestling has powered it's way up to the forefront of MMA. Let me explain:

1. I think takedowns have a huge impact on decision victories, regardless if the top guy "lays and prays" for 15 minutes. The judges will see it as the top guy winning, unless he does something stupid and gets caught in a submission. I think Koscheck is an excellent example. He gets the take downs, lays and prays more than he ground and pounds, and pulls off the decision victory. He got caught w/a knee against Drew Ficket but his overall record is 11-1.

2. I think wrestlers have a lot of central fortitude. And that stems from years of training since about high school and maybe college. So we're looking at a time period of about 4-8 years of intense training. Pushing yourself to the limit. Extreme conditioning. Constantly battling yourself to be better. The mindset that "when the whistle blows, it's just you and your opponent." Lot of great fighters come to mind here. Where should I start? Tito, Hughes, Couture, Koscheck, Sherk, Linland, and the list goes on.

3. I think you can eventually learn the striking, submissions, and submission defense. I think it would more easier to learn the striking, subs, and sub defense later than it would to learn the wrestling later. And if your striking isn't do too well, you always have the takedown to fall back to. Tito and Koscheck have showed dramatic improvement in their striking since they first entered MMA as "just wrestlers." Koscheck looked really good against Diego. A little boring, but it was effective. I believe Tito dropped Wanderlei Silva in their fight(I could be wrong about that). I remember Joe Roagan saying that Tito has done well in submission tourneys. He did train w/Mark Laimon and Dean Lister.

Guys like Chuck, Randy, and Vera have great wrestling to get the fight where they want it. Chuck has that great sprawl. Randy has excellent boxing and uses it when he wants. Randy has said that Vera is an excellent wrestler and I'm sure he uses it to keep the fight on his feet.

I know it's a long post, but I wanted to put my point across. I respect all aspects of MMA, however, I feel wrestling is at the top. BJJ and any kind of striking is very, very important but I feel that wrestling is now the foundation, especially the way the fights are being judged. Other than Royce and Marco Rua, what other BJJ greats have won UFC tourneys or wore UFC gold around their waste? Without going back to check, I can't think of anyone else. How many wrestlers? Lets see: Don Frye, Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Tito, Chuck, Randy, Sherk, etc.

BJJ is very important but I feel wrestling is at the top. Let me know what you guys think. I know it was a long post but I wanted to get my point across. If I had any wrong info please tell me. Have a great day guys.

Malf

Well....
LW champ = Wrestler
WW champ = BJJ
MW champ = Muay Thai/BJJ
LHW champ = Wrestler
HW champ = Wrestler

It seems that at the moment, most of the champs got started with wrestling. But, as stated previously, they all learned striking to round themselves out. I personally don't think that wrestling is superior, so much as I think it's the most common gateway into MMA. I mean, highschools in the US have wrestling teams. I don't see any highschool BJJ or kickboxing. These days, you can pick any of the arts to get the ball rolling, but you're gonna have to train in them all to be successfull.

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A mixed martial artist should have a mixed arsenal.

St. Pierre - Penn - Lauzon - Florian - Torres
www.myspace.com/malf922

Normo

Chuck Liddell - I dont think he got into MMA from his college wrestling background I mainly think its because of his kickboxing, I would also so Anderson Silva, Randy Couture and slightly Matt Serra well rounded. Strikers are taking over MMA now because thats what the fans want to see and if you train sprawl, normally the striker comes out on top. IE. GSP vs Hughes, Liddell vs anyone, Cropcop vs most people

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Michael Bisping on sokoudjou
"I’ll f-ing bounce his head all over the place, f-ing a-hole."

mepersoner

Liddell wouldn't be successful without his college wrestling background... which he was first, before he was a karate guy.

Liddell is a wrestler who learned striking.

Mirko is a striker who learned wrestling.

GSP is a striker who learned wrestling.

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yaiir

I think this is just another phase of how MMA is totally changing and evolving. At the moment its wrestling which is getting all the attention, but that doesnt man that in the future it wont be something else.

That said, Randy Couture thinks that submissions will grow to be less and less effective and used, because fighters can defend them so well. (Sorry, I dont have a source, but i was flicking through a magazine, and i read that in it)

So I think that in the past, it was OK for a fighter to be great at submissions, and only have good striking/wrestling, and that in the future, for you to be able to submit someone, it will be important to have great wrestling/striking and only have good submissions.

SeikanJudanski

A good MMA fighter is well rounded and that´s the bottom line baby.

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duke09

serra won the belt via striking

sitnspin

I've posted a couple of times in the recent past (in response to threads like this), saying how the sport seems to have come full circle to where striking is winning fights. At one point it was all about jiu-jitsu completely outsmarting the strikers, and tying them in knots before they knew what was going on. But all these years later, BJJ and the submission game are so common that it's the guys who can strike with speed and accuracy who are shocking the grapplers.

Don't get me wrong, you can't hope to compete unless you have strong ground skills, but the guys who have focused too much on that are getting knocked out.

And I also believe that wrestling is the best background / basis for success in the sport. Wrestlers have that power and agility and balance that allows them to take guys down and avoid being taken down. If you don't have that, you're at the mercy of the guys who are predominantly strikers or sub artists.

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Jras0001

I dont think that you have to be a superb BJJ practicioner in order to make it in MMA but you should / need to have at least a basic working knowlege of it just so that you will be able to adequately defend yourself against submission attempts by your oponent.

My GnP is Sick

With Dana Offering his fighters $25k for best KO of the night its no surprize we see less fighting on the ground lately

SeikanJudanski

Isn´t it the same with best submission of the night?

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MTKrav911

It is an essential part of a well rounded MMA skill set.

but..

You can't go in there with only BJJ anymore and think you're going to win. You'd better at least have great BJJ and above average everything else or you're gonna get smoked.

The Days of the flying upside down arm-bars (ala Frank Shamrock) are over.

The Days of reverse crucifix side armbars ala Royce Gracie vs. Kimo are over.

The Days of simple arm-triangle tap-outs are over.

They teach 9 year olds those techniques in this day and age for crying out loud. But you'd better know them, or at least extremely well versed in the defenses to them. Or your MMA career will end before it starts!

Jras0001

The submission of the night gets the same bonus.

Osnodon

]

I bet you that Chuck doesn't consider himself a wrestler.

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Top 5

1. BJ Penn
2. Mauricio Rua
3. Rampage
4. GSP
5. A. Silva

chucksmasher

Its absolutley a necessity, is it all you need...No.

patMANpv

The fact of the matter is, BJJ completely altered MMA. Straight BJJ will beat straight wrestling almost any day, as we saw when Royce beat Severn. Now a days though, no one will ever get by being one dimensional and only focusing on one discipline. Being well rounded is key.

Look at the champs:

Randy Couture, a wrestler, won with his striking against Sylvia (although the takedowns did play a big role).

Chuck Liddell, primarily a striker, but would be nowhere without his excellent takedown defense.

Anderson Silva, beat Rich Franklin with Muay Thai and beat Lutter on the ground, also a BJJ black belt.

Matt Serra, a BJJ fighter, but beat St. Pierre with his striking.


As you can see, no one aspect can carry you to MMA supremecy, hince the name MIXED Martial Arts.

That being said, wrestling or BJJ is probably the best backgrounds to have. Both of these arts can be started at a young age and is generally very accessible to most people. Wrestling is accessible to almost everyone and it is a school sport, so it is very easy for kids to get into it. A solid background on the ground is key in today's MMA world.

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Favorite Fighters
1. Royce Gracie
2. Randy Couture
3. Rich "Ace" Franklin
4. Georges St. Pierre
5. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira

PINOYPRIDE

Yes I totally agree.

IrishRage

Wrestling I think if its your number one strength , and your a Division one champion your sitting pretty for MMA if you put time and effort to learn the other skills. BJJ is amazing and can end a fight at any given moment but if that is all you relay you will lose the sport requires you to be well rounded Royce Gracie going for 30 minute crazy battles and finally working a submission doesn't have the same effect now . There is boxers who have heavy hands that couldn't progress to MMA and there is tons of K1 fighters would have tried and failed , bottom line Chuck and crocop have amazing striking but there takedown defense is what allows you to do so . Personally my strength is my 10 years of boxing and just over 12 years of wrestling , I can teach and be tought much more in Boxing then I could ever teach someone in wrestling , its a inner strength that over time is just in you where as boxing I can teach Technique and footwork but I can't teach knock out power thats in someone before they even walk into a gym. If there some young kids on here that want to get in MMA get into everything possible at a young age you will learn twice as fast . Boxing , BJJ , wrestling

Daniel

That sounds about right to me. If my High School had kickboxing I probably never would have left.

name goes here

Wrestlers have the advantage of being able to get on top, and defend the takedown. Also, as best shown in Matt Lindland's and Randy's last fights (not to mention Randlemans lucky win against CC) , the threat of a shoot greatly improves the effect of your striking. Plus a background in adjusting your weight to fit the divisions, and cutting are an advantage.

Kickboxing has the advantage of being probably the better form of striking. Also they are the best for acclimitizing yourself to the reality of fear and pain in the ring, as they tend to be less protective of their members.

BJJ is still the best place to go to learn about submissions and fighting from your back, but is a victim of its own success in that everyone is aware of the power of submissions and trains to defend against them.

Fedor does Sambo so it must be good!

Other martial arts allow you to bring something the opponent doesn't have and doesn't know about into the ring.